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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 136937 times)

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Davio

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2011, 01:29:45 pm »
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If there is a theme to expansion I say it is that the whole thing is fraught with traps.

There is some subtle jujitsu going on here.  There are <i>so many</i> ways to play these cards badly.  There has been a trend in the last couple of months of a general upswing of average player skill on isotropic; I am only speaking from my own experience but it seems that more people have gotten better at spotting the overall stronger strategies and using mirror play to force more luck into my games.  This is about to change.

Yes, there are some very strong and simple combos in Hinterlands but there is also less margin for error.  Every expansion has sped up the game, and I think for the most part Hinterlands is not at all a weak expansion.  Compare the new thief with the old and I think you'll see that these cards are not nerfed.  <i>However</i>,  There is a greater nuance to playing them and a better chance to get stuck building or misplaying an engine too long and lose the ability to win against a simple fast deck.  This expac is riddled with these pitfalls.

On a side note, it is a shame that Isotropic is going away all too soon.  I would gladly pay a subscription fee.  I do intend to buy the commercial version when it appears, but I doubt it will have the simplistic beauty of this format.  Cheers.
I don't think this is restricted to Hinterlands, but merely a general theme with every new expansion. It just takes time for players to figure out how to use the new cards properly.

Whenever a new card is presented, I always think back to my own days of discovering Dominion for the first time. I rarely ever bought Chapel, because: Why could such a cheap card be so good? And why would you want to trash your own points? I was new to deck-building at the time, so most of the cards and the governing aspects of deck building had me confused.

I've swung and missed severely with these new cards in the last few days, but also had some moderate success. Sometimes when I'm too confused I revert back to my proven strategies only to be beaten by someone who was willing to go out on a limb. And when I try to do it myself, I get bludgeoned by someone who just BMUs or does it better. Finetuning is the hardest part.

I also have to reprogram my quick playstyle. I used to just pick the card I needed the most, but now with all those "on gain" options, I may have to spend a little more time thinking about my buys.
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2011, 01:49:58 pm »
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Mandarin is nowhere near a cheap gold, imo. Mandarin seems like it's often worse than silver, since you have to put a card back on your deck. If it's a victory card, you bureaucrat'd yourself and are going to have a worse next turn. If it's a treasure, you're losing money, so you're not really getting $3. And if it's an action, you would have been able to play the action instead had you just had silver instead of mandarin, and the result would probably have been better. I think it's only better than silver if you want to save specific cards for later (like province in a tournament game, or a fool's gold) or if you're doing the black market thing.

I think the on-buy effect is the more important one, as it lets you save your Golds/Silvers in case you just barely make Province but not quite (e.g. if you have $7 this turn in Golds and Silver, topdecking them might let you hit $8 the next). The action effect simply prevents Mandarin collision from causing dead cards.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2011, 02:28:47 pm »
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Mandarin is nowhere near a cheap gold, imo. Mandarin seems like it's often worse than silver, since you have to put a card back on your deck. If it's a victory card, you bureaucrat'd yourself and are going to have a worse next turn. If it's a treasure, you're losing money, so you're not really getting $3. And if it's an action, you would have been able to play the action instead had you just had silver instead of mandarin, and the result would probably have been better. I think it's only better than silver if you want to save specific cards for later (like province in a tournament game, or a fool's gold) or if you're doing the black market thing.

I think the on-buy effect is the more important one, as it lets you save your Golds/Silvers in case you just barely make Province but not quite (e.g. if you have $7 this turn in Golds and Silver, topdecking them might let you hit $8 the next). The action effect simply prevents Mandarin collision from causing dead cards.

I agree the on buy effect is the most interesting and probably most useful part of mandarin, because in your deck it is for the most part pretty useless.
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ackack

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2011, 02:32:12 pm »
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Mandarin/Minion seemed quite nice when I played it yesterday, especially if you have actions to burn. In general, I think it's like other sources of action $ - it's good when that's specifically what you need.
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Davio

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2011, 04:09:32 pm »
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Silk Roads is the new Gardens?

Tried it out and it seemed to somewhat work, though I can imagine it's possibly easily countered by more experienced players.
Too bad buying Coppers doesn't help; I just bought them to increase my buying power, go figure...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2011, 04:23:06 pm »
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^I think workshop+silk road should be basically equivalent to workshop+gardens in most cases. Fast 3-pile with cheap cards worth 3VP a pop.
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ackack

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2011, 05:23:41 pm »
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I had an interesting game earlier with Silk Road, Workshop, Crossroads (!) and Vault (!!). What made it interesting was my opponent was Bishoping. I think I would have lost against alert players who grabbed a couple of roads, but that is some pretty great synergy.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2011, 05:57:54 pm »
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Re: Scheme

Read the card

Touché.

Still seems a bit odd to give you an option that does nothing. I suppose it's the best way of wording it, and not odd when playing IRL, which is what the cards are designed for.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2011, 06:15:26 pm »
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Mandarin/Minion seemed quite nice when I played it yesterday, especially if you have actions to burn. In general, I think it's like other sources of action $ - it's good when that's specifically what you need.

Hm, I can definitely see Mandarin playing well with Minion.  I was super down on Mandarin when it was first leaked (yay, who doesn't want to Ghost Ship themselves for terminal treasure!) but I can see it working as an extra source of money in Minion/Scrying Pool treasureless decks where the on-gain penalty (and yes it's usually a huge penalty) is moot.  I can also see it being used as a one-shot buy in the late game to push your stranded Platinum into a hand that can buy that last Colony.

So, yeah, not Explorer-level horrible like I first thought.  Probably more like Harvest-level mediocre.
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Willvon

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2011, 06:20:54 pm »
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theory / CaptainFrisk / (whoever is doing the main blog nowadays): we need a "initial thoughts" article right about now, so that we can all look back and laugh at our ignorance when the Hinterland cards first came out! Quick, before all of us log too many plays...

I was thinking the same thing.  If a new expansion isn't enough to draw Theory out of retirement, then I don't know what will.  I keep checking out the Dominion Strategy main site each day, but nothing new.  I would love to see that blog get going again.
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Willvon

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2011, 06:31:20 pm »
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One last thing: I was really enjoying the whole 2-a-day thing. I was resisting the urge to look at the whole list until I found out they were all now on Isotropic, which I actually found a bit disappointing. So Donald, if you read this, or anyone else it may concern, if you're after feedback for next time, revealing 2 per day was really good, and I think much more exciting than finding out about a bunch at once. I would have happily continued this for the whole set.

I totally agree with you.  I would have been very happy to have had all of the cards previewed that way.  It was really building up my excitement for the game.  It was a little deflating to have everything revealed at once like that.  On the BGG thread, Donald mentioned that he is not planning to do previews for the small expansion next spring, but will do so again for the large expansion next fall.  Personally, I would love to see him do it for the small expansion also if he can fit it in his schedule.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2011, 06:34:40 pm »
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One last thing: I was really enjoying the whole 2-a-day thing. I was resisting the urge to look at the whole list until I found out they were all now on Isotropic, which I actually found a bit disappointing. So Donald, if you read this, or anyone else it may concern, if you're after feedback for next time, revealing 2 per day was really good, and I think much more exciting than finding out about a bunch at once. I would have happily continued this for the whole set.

I'll echo this as well. One nice thing about two-a-day is it gave you time to mull over the cards and learn the expansion gradually. Not to mention it kept the anticipation factor high. Still, it's a great expansion, can't complain.
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Davio

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2011, 02:20:52 am »
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One last thing: I was really enjoying the whole 2-a-day thing. I was resisting the urge to look at the whole list until I found out they were all now on Isotropic, which I actually found a bit disappointing. So Donald, if you read this, or anyone else it may concern, if you're after feedback for next time, revealing 2 per day was really good, and I think much more exciting than finding out about a bunch at once. I would have happily continued this for the whole set.

I'll echo this as well. One nice thing about two-a-day is it gave you time to mull over the cards and learn the expansion gradually. Not to mention it kept the anticipation factor high. Still, it's a great expansion, can't complain.
I think he felt they forced his hand with releasing the German spoilers. He might have thought: "Might as well release them all now with their correct texts instead of having to correct every card as they are being (mis)translated from German."

I enjoyed it too, it gave us some time to think about each one separately.
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Qvist

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2011, 03:53:11 am »
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Mandarin is nowhere near a cheap gold, imo. Mandarin seems like it's often worse than silver, since you have to put a card back on your deck. If it's a victory card, you bureaucrat'd yourself and are going to have a worse next turn. If it's a treasure, you're losing money, so you're not really getting $3. And if it's an action, you would have been able to play the action instead had you just had silver instead of mandarin, and the result would probably have been better. I think it's only better than silver if you want to save specific cards for later (like province in a tournament game, or a fool's gold) or if you're doing the black market thing.

I think the on-buy effect is the more important one, as it lets you save your Golds/Silvers in case you just barely make Province but not quite (e.g. if you have $7 this turn in Golds and Silver, topdecking them might let you hit $8 the next). The action effect simply prevents Mandarin collision from causing dead cards.

I agree the on buy effect is the most interesting and probably most useful part of mandarin, because in your deck it is for the most part pretty useless.

Ok, still not played with it. I have to see it in action but your arguments seem plausible.

Jimmmmm

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2011, 04:04:00 am »
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I read somewhere that the on-gain effect of Mandarin is a bonus, and the action effect is a penalty. I don't think this is good way of thinking of it. They are both just things that happen when you gain or play the card.

As has been pointed out, like many Hinterlands cards, Mandarin can both help you and hurt you. This is clearly true for both effects. If you play some Markets and then two Coppers, you certainly don't want to put those two Coppers back on deck. If you have five Coppers, maybe you do want those back on deck to give you a guaranteed second $5. Obviously if you only use Golds and Silver, usually top-decking these is a good idea.

Again, the action effect can be either good or bad for you. Often putting a gold back can really help your next turn, and you still get the $3. If you happen to be doing well enough to have $8 without the Mandarin, you get a Province this turn, and a Gold in your hand next turn. Of course, sometimes you'd rather not put something back, but sometimes it really helps.

So I think it will take some skill (possibly more than I have at this point) to both buy and play this card well. But both effects can certainly help you if you do it well, and hurt you if you don't.
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2011, 07:20:57 am »
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I can't really grok Silk road at all. I usually have no idea when it's worth buying. It seems a lot weaker than Gardens... right?

Duchess seems to be a bad card generally.

Margrave seems to be (usually) a weaker torturer. That is very very much countered by menagerie and watchtower/library combos.

I've never seen anyone buy cache. It feels like a pretty bad card, unless I guess you have apothecary/spice merchant/stables.

I keep underestimating Haggler.

Inn seems to be an overpriced hamlet. I suppose it might work in some late game combos, but that probably requires better card counting skills than I have.

Farmland probably isn't worth it except in the late game.

Scheme is a lot of fun.


---

I've made use of the mandarin effect positively, previously. If you don't need it (i.e. no +buys), pushing back a non-terminal drawing cards is very nice for keeping an engine going.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2011, 07:27:42 am »
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Cache could be an okay opener if there's both trashing and a vital $6+ that you need ASAP. You're going to have some bad hands, but hopefully your Cache gets you a good early turn or two. Usually though, it doesn't seem like a very good card. Of course, if you have a Watchtower in your hand: free cheap Gold. A trader instead: free cheap Gold + 2 Silvers. But I think this will end up being bought about the same amount as Contraband.
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Fangz

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2011, 07:32:50 am »
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Cache could be an okay opener if there's both trashing and a vital $6+ that you need ASAP. You're going to have some bad hands, but hopefully your Cache gets you a good early turn or two. Usually though, it doesn't seem like a very good card. Of course, if you have a Watchtower in your hand: free cheap Gold. A trader instead: free cheap Gold + 2 Silvers. But I think this will end up being bought about the same amount as Contraband.

I like contraband a lot actually. The +buy really matters in gaining lots of good but cheap cards. Cache... less so.
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ackack

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2011, 07:50:00 am »
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I can't really grok Silk road at all. I usually have no idea when it's worth buying. It seems a lot weaker than Gardens... right?

I don't think I'd say that, it's just different. Both seem comparable as a pure rush. Gardens is probably more flexible - you can use it to counter things like Mountebank, and there are generally more methods for inflating size than inflating VP cards. But there will also be spots where Silk Road is stronger than Gardens would have been.

Quote
Margrave seems to be (usually) a weaker torturer. That is very very much countered by menagerie and watchtower/library combos.

I think this is the wrong way to look at Margrave. Instead, it's almost as good as Council Room and it also attacks your opponent. It will be very good in big engines, and I'd be surprised if it isn't now the premier draw card for a Big Money + 1 action type approach. (It may still be slower than something like Envoy, but in terms of giving you the best chance to win the game I suspect this is a fair bit better.)
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Empathy

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2011, 07:58:49 am »
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Inn seems to be an overpriced hamlet. I suppose it might work in some late game combos, but that probably requires better card counting skills than I have.


Inn is incredibly powerful with cards like grand market, conspirator, minion ...

You can "lock your deck" while making a province a turn if you have enough action money to get 13. It also seems like a great university target.

Assuming for example you get a 6-4 GM split and some lonely market, just wait until you are *just about* to trigger a reschuffle (and hence have a nearly empty deck). Buy a first Inn to reschuffle all your money actions into your deck. Then buy Inn+province every turn.

The inn reshuffles all your actions, and if you are careful never to trigger a reshuffle, you will never see your treasures/green cards for the rest of the game (or at least until the Inn pile runs out).

It might even work for duke/duchy, because getting 10$ in actions really doesn't seem hard. Not to mention Ironworks/garden, though you will actually probably get the gardens before the lock (wasting time on conspi seems horrible before the garden split has been decided). But once you have the (hopefully 4-4) garden split, rather than empty piles, go for 3 conspi and lock down your deck to play all your actions every turn. If you are casting 4+ironworks a turn, your deck should make more points (especially if some of those are again conspis).

« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 08:38:14 am by Empathy »
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AJD

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2011, 08:47:59 am »
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I won a game pretty easily yesterday with the Cache / Counting House combo, throwing in a couple Havens to move the Caches and Counting Houses themselves to the hands where they were most needed.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2011, 08:53:11 am »
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Okay, I'd like to hear some opinions about <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/19/game-20111019-054507-b2d928ed.html> this game</a>.

Is Oasis/JoAT a subtle supercombo?  It may have been perfect shuffle luck but damn, this simple deck produced 4 P's by turn 11, and 6 by 14.

Edit: Apparently it is.  I replicated it <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/19/game-20111019-061345-81e05a34.html>in solitaire</a> rather quickly.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 09:17:39 am by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Kirian

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2011, 09:10:13 am »
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Inn seems to be an overpriced hamlet. I suppose it might work in some late game combos, but that probably requires better card counting skills than I have.


Inn is incredibly powerful with cards like grand market, conspirator, minion ...

You can "lock your deck" while making a province a turn if you have enough action money to get 13. It also seems like a great university target.

Assuming for example you get a 6-4 GM split and some lonely market, just wait until you are *just about* to trigger a reschuffle (and hence have a nearly empty deck). Buy a first Inn to reschuffle all your money actions into your deck. Then buy Inn+province every turn.

I think you may have mis-read the card.  It doesn't shuffle in cards you've played this turn; only cards already in your discard.  So if you toss 4 GMs into your draw pile with an Inn, buying an Inn this turn won't put those GMs on your deck.

Nonetheless, strategically the general idea is right.  If you have, say, KCs and Bridges in your discard and are just at the end of your deck, buy an Inn and, voila, win next turn.
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Kirian

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2011, 09:14:18 am »
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On a side note, it is a shame that Isotropic is going away all too soon.  I would gladly pay a subscription fee.  I do intend to buy the commercial version when it appears, but I doubt it will have the simplistic beauty of this format.  Cheers.

I think I'll miss the Council Room stats and ladder most myself.  I can't imagine they'll be included early; they may never get included at all.  Discussion on this board will suffer without the ability to link games; no competitive ladder means... well, no competition.  Ah well.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2011, 09:15:38 am »
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On a side note, it is a shame that Isotropic is going away all too soon.  I would gladly pay a subscription fee.  I do intend to buy the commercial version when it appears, but I doubt it will have the simplistic beauty of this format.  Cheers.

I think I'll miss the Council Room stats and ladder most myself.  I can't imagine they'll be included early; they may never get included at all.  Discussion on this board will suffer without the ability to link games; no competitive ladder means... well, no competition.  Ah well.

Donald is an active member of this forum and I'm pretty sure he's having a lot of input into this project. He'll make sure all of the right features are present.
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