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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 147750 times)

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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2011, 12:43:21 am »
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Strange that it's not been mentioned - my first thought upon seeing Tunnel is "Hunting Party"

Well, unlike a lot of the other cards, for Hunting Party you need to have bought at least two, and both have it in your hand and be revealed on the draw. That's not quite as good as simply discarding it with Warehouse or Cellar.
Nope, that's not it. Start Silver/Silver, then go with 5+ = HP, 3/4 = Tunnel, until you find you have enough HPs, then go full-on Province. The key? You don't need to buy Golds. You're not planning on having a Tunnel in hand, you're planning to draw one with an HP and then discard the rest with your other HPs (until you're unlucky enough to draw it as the HP's first card).

Disclaimer: haven't played, haven't simulated. Keeping away from Isotropic for a while because every game has like 4 Hinterlands cards, which skews the boards towards Hinterlands x Hinterlands interactions instead of Hinterlands x (rest of expansions) interactions.
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2011, 01:23:17 am »
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Nope, that's not it. Start Silver/Silver, then go with 5+ = HP, 3/4 = Tunnel, until you find you have enough HPs, then go full-on Province. The key? You don't need to buy Golds. You're not planning on having a Tunnel in hand, you're planning to draw one with an HP and then discard the rest with your other HPs (until you're unlucky enough to draw it as the HP's first card).

Disclaimer: haven't played, haven't simulated. Keeping away from Isotropic for a while because every game has like 4 Hinterlands cards, which skews the boards towards Hinterlands x Hinterlands interactions instead of Hinterlands x (rest of expansions) interactions.

Oh, that is actually really good at gaining Gold, such that you'd need a source of +Buy to use the tons of Gold you're getting, even with only 2 Tunnels in your deck. With more than 2, you're quite capable of emptying the Gold pile within 20 Turns.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 01:26:00 am by biopower »
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olneyce

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2011, 01:42:04 am »
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Having played a few games with the new cards, my main comment is that they make games take FOREVER.  I like the concepts of a lot of them, but any game that's got more than one or two of them drags on for like an hour.

They're great at producing complex interactions, but do so in a way that doesn't tend to produce killer hands. 
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FarHorizon

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2011, 01:44:22 am »
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HP/Tunnel is clever, but without trashing it's taking me awhile to reliably 'hunt out tunnels' to generate enough golds.

Adding a trashing card makes it a lot more viable, it seems like.  I only played 6 solo games, so a simulation would be better.
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danshep

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2011, 01:45:51 am »
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You really need something else going on in your deck for tunnel+hunting party to do you good. Another treasure type on the board for the HP to fish out, an attack to play or something else.

Tunnel + Hunting Party + Crossroads + A buy source is crazy sauce - http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/17/game-20111017-224149-e50c8a97.html - 4 provinces (+ some tunnels) by turn 11 - should be better than that as I should've opened silver/bridge.
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danshep

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2011, 02:27:25 am »
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Just played a game with throne room + scheme on the board, which is pretty nice - the doubled scheme lets you put both the scheme and throne room back so you can do that forever for +2 actions and a full hand at the start of every turn until you hit another action worth throning instead.

Double Kings Court + Scheme would be pretty awesome too - the scheme would let you put both kings courts and the scheme back on deck, so you can be king's courting something else every turn and that something else will be chosen from 5 non scheme/KC cards in hand. So you'd be able to put a double kings-court deck together without trashing.

Edit: Kings Court + Scheme + Masq leads to a fairly fast pin - you don't even necessarily need a discarder. The extra actions from the KC'd scheme let you keep some money actions in your deck so you can have an intact economy after you've finished trashing his deck. So even if he manages to struggle along towards a 3-pile ending with a two-card hand, you'll have the cash in hand to ramp back up your VP's.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:53:43 am by danshep »
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2011, 02:30:20 am »
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HP/Tunnel is clever, but without trashing it's taking me awhile to reliably 'hunt out tunnels' to generate enough golds.

Adding a trashing card makes it a lot more viable, it seems like.  I only played 6 solo games, so a simulation would be better.

You don't want too many different unique cards in your deck. Even without trashing, as long as you buy only Tunnel and Hunting Party after your opening two silvers, you can get an inordinate amount of gold in your deck. Of course, this is assuming there aren't attacks at play.

Tunnel Hunting done right, 4 Provinces and 8 Gold by Turn 15. Although I had the odd hand after greening, where I drew no Hunting Parties and so couldn't buy much, 8 Gold is probably better than any BM Variant will have acquired by that point.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:39:06 am by biopower »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2011, 06:05:18 am »
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I think it's kind of interesting that Governor isn't actually a Hinterlands card... That leaked pretty damn early now that we consider that it has to come from one of the remaining two expansions.
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2011, 06:33:29 am »
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Not able to open biopower's game, but 4 Prov + 8 Gold @ Turn 15 doesn't seem significantly better than HP+BM. Still, it's close enough that HP/Tunnels vs. HP+BM may end up "Duchy/Tunnel dancing" for a while, which I guess the HP/Tunnels deck has an advantage at.

Sweet, thanks.
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DG

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2011, 06:42:47 am »
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Quote
I think it's kind of interesting that Governor isn't actually a Hinterlands card.
Margrave is presumably the replacement name. Wonderfully exotic it is too.
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Qvist

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2011, 08:23:53 am »
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My thoughts:

Border Village: We already know it. It's great if there are 5$-cards that you would buy either way (especially attack cards or other terminals) so you get a "normal" village for free. Beware: Don't forget to buy gold too.

Cache: Do I want to buy this with a 5/2 start. I think most of the time there will be better $5-cards in the supply. Great if you can trash the coppers immediately with watchtower or turn them into silver with Trader. Great in a Gardens deck too: 3 cards for $5 is great.

Cartographer: I think it's a great card which is kinda useful on all boards. If you have many curses or victory cards you can discard them. Also great in the beginning where the recently buyed cards get into your hand earlier. It also stacks well because another Cartographer draws one of the "prepared" cards. Maybe you only don't want to buy it if you have already a good running engine

Crossroads: One of my favourite cards. +3 Actions is already great even without the drawing effect. So buy one with $2 left is rarely bad. But on boards with at least one additional victory card a nearly must-buy and very over-powered. You can start going green after the first turns. Imagine the combo-potential with Harem, Nobles and Gardens of course. Yesterday had my first game with Crossroads and luckily there was Gardens and Workshop on the table. Great. Hoard is also great for going green earlier.

Develop: It's very board-dependant. But I think it can be very useful in mid-/end-game to develop one card into a victory card and the other in another useful card, mostly a treasure card. Developing a $7-card like Bank into Province and a Gold in end-game or developing a Moneylender into a Duchy and a Silver in mid-game. But I still have to test it.

Duchess: Doesn't seem very useful. A silver for $2 is great of course. You can buy one with a 5/2 start. But in the later game it's only useful if you have a good running engine with enough actions and at least +Buy. The obvious good case is when Duke is on board.

Embassy: Drawing 2 cards for $5 doesn't seem very good. But imagine you play it immediately at the start of your turn. So you can choose 6 cards out of 9 cards which is great. If there wasn't the silver gain for the other players it were a good buy for a 5/2 start. But gaining a silver isn't that good in mid-game in colony games so maybe that would be a good buy in such games.

Fool's Gold: As already pointed out, mostly it's no good card. You have to buy many of them, so it needs it's own strategy. It's great if there are good trashers in the supply, especially Chapel, but Steward too. And of course it's great if there a heavy cyclers on the board. So Embassy for example seem to be great with Fool's Gold. Or apprentice a card and play another card for +Buy to get 5 Fools' Gold => 2 Provinces (5 Golds won't work!).

Haggler: I will look forward to test this out. Buy a Platinum, gain a Border Village, gain another Haggler ... or something like that. That could easily end the game on emptying 3 piles. Great is also that Haggler itself gives $2. Haggler would be a good buy in a 5/2 start.

Highway: Not very new effect. It's effect can not be throned, but it's a cantrip, so you can multiples of them. I'm missing the +Buy of Bridge. It reminds me more of Quarry instead of Bridge. So $5 seems a little bit expensive. Great with engines with enough buys I think. Wharf+Highway or Salvager+Highway could be great.

Ill-Gotten Gains: I don't like it. It's the only curse-giver in the set and only a one shot. And $5 is definitely overpriced. So you need trash-for-benefit cards and then you have a feast-like card with a one-shot cursing attack. Or you buy a new one for every trashed one.

Inn: Yes, more shuffling :D ! First that came to my mind was: Scrying Pool. I think those two can combo very well. So with this card you want a action-heavy deck, because you get the +Actions. Peddler could also be great with enough extra buys. If you have too many terminal action cards, you can also discard 2 terminal action cards with Inn, then buy a Inn and shuffle them back.

Jack of all Trades: A little bit too complicated for my taste. It combines Bureacrat, Spy, drawing and trashing. I think one buy at the start is good, but I don't think it's a very good card.

Mandarin: A cheap gold. As already pointed out, combos well with Black Market.

Margrave: Maybe my favourite attack in this set. It seems very overpowered. It nearly a Council Room for the drawing ability and then nearly a Militia. So: Council Room and Mititia already was a great combo. Now we have it in one card! I think playing 2 Margraves is mostly better than Council Room+Militia. I'm looking forward to see it in action.

Noble Brigand: A mostly better Thief. It gives +1$, it attacks when you buy it, steals only Silver and Gold and gives Copper. So it's much better. Only in colony games it can't steal Platinum and of course other treasures but you can buy them yourself if you have already the treasures from your opponents :D

Nomad Camp: Instant Woodcutter, nothing special. I don't like that it adds luck to the start distribution.

Oasis: I don't get it yet. It's an expensive copper. It only removes a little bit of drawing luck. But I think for $3 I would rather buy a silver. Or can anybody tell me in which cases you would buy this?

Oracle: A better spy-variant. Instead of one card, it works with 2 cards and you look and discard before you draw: great. I'm only missing the +1 Action, but I think that would be overpowered for that price. I think that can bring up hard decisions for discarding. Should I let you discard your estate and gold or not?!

Scheme: Great, especially for that cost. It's a cantrip and it let you prepare your next turn. Play Scheme, play Witch, put Witch back on your deck. If you had no action cards in play, put itself back. I think this is nearly never bad.

Spice Merchant: Also a great card. Trash for Laboratory effect is great. It stacks not as well as Laboratory because you have to trash. And if you don't need the Laboratory effect you can also choose $2 and +Buy. So it's very flexible, I like it.

Stables: Looks also great. +3 Cards and +1 Action is very powerful. I think with that card you don't want to trash you coppers, so you can you use it multiple times. So in a Province game you buy 3 Stables and 3 Gold and you're ready to go green. Can anybody simulate that?

Trader: As already pointed out, a very interesting card that can be great in Gardens or Duke games. It can empty the silver pile very quickly. It's also great againt Curse-givers, especially Mountebank.

Farmland: Very interesting. But I don't know in what situations it would work. Maybe in end-game if you have 9$ and only one buy in a Province game. So you buy a Farmland with only $6 and trash the remaining Gold to a Province. Or in mid-game you buy with $6 a Farmland and trash your Moneylander and get a Gold. Any other ideas?

Silk Road: Another card for Gardens. Imagine Crossroads, Gardens and Silk Road on the board! But I think for $4 you need at least 12 victory cards to make it worth. I correct: Imagine a board with Crossroads, Nobles, Great Hall and Silk Road!

Tunnel: Wow! What an idea! I think early buys can be worth it. Of course it's board dependant. I didn't count the amount of cards that would enable the ability of Tunnel, but I think in nearly every game there is at least one card that would fit. One question: It doesn't say "discard from hand", so cards like Adventurer and Library would trigger the effect right? So Adventurer would combo great! Buy one card that trashes your copper, for example Moneylender. Buy a Province if possible, else buy an Adventurer if possible, else buy a Tunnel. Can anybody simulate that?

Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2011, 08:44:46 am »
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theory / CaptainFrisk / (whoever is doing the main blog nowadays): we need a "initial thoughts" article right about now, so that we can all look back and laugh at our ignorance when the Hinterland cards first came out! Quick, before all of us log too many plays...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2011, 09:39:04 am »
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Just a couple of things.

I played a game with Oasis + Tunnel + Chapel.  I bought a Tunnel and a couple of Oases and got rid of the rest of my deck without needing to worry about replaced my money. I then started bringing in the Gold. At least once I Oasised my Tunnel for a Gold, then drew it with my other Oasis and got another Gold from it. Okay, so I ended up losing, just, but the idea was there.
Also, discarding seems to be a mini-theme. I counted seven cards with discarding that could combo with Tunnel.

Scheme is cool. Just a thing about Isotropic: it seems to think you can put duration cards that you played that turn back on deck, and then it doesn't happen if you try to. For example, when asking if you want to topdeck an action in play, it will say "Wharf (new)" for the Wharf you played this turn and "Wharf (old)" for the one you played last turn. But if you click on the new one, it stays where it is. I think it's clear from the wording that you can't Scheme durations played this turn, but it's odd that it gives you the option.
Scheme kind of works like Walled Village, in that even if you don't have many action cards, it can sit on top of your deck to no effect, just waiting until it finds another action card to use. Except you can do this with as many as you like. I think this could extremely powerful if you have enough in your deck and you're putting (for example) two King's Courts and a Torturer back on deck EVERY TURN!
Also, Isotropic picture for the win!


INCONTHEIVABLE!

Highway is interesting. The obvious comparison is, of course, Bridge. I think it's worth noting that unless you use more than one buy in a turn, Bridge is almost exactly just a terminal Silver, no different to Woodcutter. Similarly for Highway, unless you buy more than one card, it's almost exactly a Peddler/Market without buy/Treasury you can't topdeck. (The only difference in both cases is a change in the differences between the costs of cheap cards. Play one, and you can Remodel a Copper into a Silver. Play two and you can Swindle an opponent's Estate into a Curse.) So in a game without +Buys or such trash-and-gain cards, Highway is equivalent to a cantrip $1, which is still useful. You often see many buys gained from Markets that are never used. But when this is added with +Buys, each Highway is worth $1 per buy used. Buy three things, and these are essentially cantrip Golds. How much would a +1 Card, +1 Action, +$3 go for? A lot, that's how much. So I think at worst these are a weak $5, probably more reasonable $4, but still worthwhile. But at best, they can be amazing.

Also, just a quick note on Noble Brigand vs Thief. NB can't mess up a Venture deck or a Fool's Gold deck, or hand out curses by taking Ill-Gotten Gains, or cause a 4 VP swing by running off with a Harem, or kill your opponents chances of getting the key $5+ action cards quickly by taking their quarry, or take their Stash or Royal Seal or Loan or Platinum or Potion or...
Also, I'm sure there are times when you want to trash your opponents Silvers without taking them for yourself. Also, Gardens/Copper strategies.
But of course, in general Noble Brigand is a much better card than Thief. But it's certainly not strictly better, and there are certainly times when Thief would outshine it.

Anyway, I like what I've seen of the Hinterlands cards so far. A few I don't really get yet, a few seem totally overpowered or underpowered for the cost, but what do I know, I've barely played with any of them yet.

One last thing: I was really enjoying the whole 2-a-day thing. I was resisting the urge to look at the whole list until I found out they were all now on Isotropic, which I actually found a bit disappointing. So Donald, if you read this, or anyone else it may concern, if you're after feedback for next time, revealing 2 per day was really good, and I think much more exciting than finding out about a bunch at once. I would have happily continued this for the whole set.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2011, 09:48:21 am »
+1

Re: Scheme

Read the card:

Scheme: Action, $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose an Action card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, put it on your deck.

"You may choose an Action card you have in play" means just that. A Duration played this turn is an Action card in play. It won't be discarded from play this turn, so it won't go on top of your deck, but you can choose it.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2011, 10:30:30 am »
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If there is a theme to expansion I say it is that the whole thing is fraught with traps.

There is some subtle jujitsu going on here.  There are <i>so many</i> ways to play these cards badly.  There has been a trend in the last couple of months of a general upswing of average player skill on isotropic; I am only speaking from my own experience but it seems that more people have gotten better at spotting the overall stronger strategies and using mirror play to force more luck into my games.  This is about to change.

Yes, there are some very strong and simple combos in Hinterlands but there is also less margin for error.  Every expansion has sped up the game, and I think for the most part Hinterlands is not at all a weak expansion.  Compare the new thief with the old and I think you'll see that these cards are not nerfed.  <i>However</i>,  There is a greater nuance to playing them and a better chance to get stuck building or misplaying an engine too long and lose the ability to win against a simple fast deck.  This expac is riddled with these pitfalls.

On a side note, it is a shame that Isotropic is going away all too soon.  I would gladly pay a subscription fee.  I do intend to buy the commercial version when it appears, but I doubt it will have the simplistic beauty of this format.  Cheers. 
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2011, 11:39:46 am »
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This expansion is clobbering me. Either, I go back to old standbys on the board and don't integrate the new cards enough, or I lean too heavily into them and lose out. I lose a lot with this expansion, in games where neither I nor the opponent is playing really well. It's clobbering me right now. My board assessment skills are weak to begin with, this just added more dimension to something I was already novice at.

I like a lot of the design of the cards, but the problem with isotropic is that its a lousy place to learn the game. It's unforgiving, not particularly friendly and full of people with over 300+ games under their belt.

The game is much more fun with real people and friends. I'll continue to play a few games online each day, and I will eventually buy Hinterlands, but I feel like I am even further behind than I already was to reach even just the median of the bell curve on isotropic.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2011, 11:41:07 am »
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If there is a theme to expansion I say it is that the whole thing is fraught with traps.

This. But also, there's a lot of options, a lot more tactics than before (as opposed to strategy), and a LOT of analysis paralysis.

DStu

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2011, 11:58:14 am »
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...but I feel like I am even further behind than I already was to reach even just the median of the bell curve on isotropic.

With 28.944 ± 14.240, you should be above it...
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2011, 12:00:12 pm »
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Well, just because people keep playing with Hinterlands cards, I stumbled on the Hunting Tunnels in a real game...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/18/game-20111018-085614-100cad94.html

Initial thoughts? It's very clunky until you get your first Gold. The clashing of Feasts nearly killed me, but perhaps I should have bought Tunnels sooner.

More thoughts: Hunting Party games (with no attacks) set very high bars, I think along the line of 4 Provinces by Turn 13 or something like that, because all you need is one Gold, one Silver, and one terminal Silver (say Steward). Hunting Tunnels seems infeasible with any of these around... however, due to the sheer number of Golds generated, perhaps this is actually workable in a Colony game, where HP + Terminal Silver doesn't do well?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 12:22:31 pm by Anon79 »
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2011, 12:07:17 pm »
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With 28.944 ± 14.240, you should be above it...

It's tough, I'll tell you. Most games I win, I win by just a point or two I think, (at least it feels I win by a nose on the last draw, I also have several ties), if I lose I get clobbered it seems while I'm mired with a borked deck. Hinterlands produced some terrible decks for me last night. Big engines destroy me, I reach too early for Provinces, seem to have the lead, then slow down and then get steamrolled by a big engine.

This expansion has a learning curve, most especially with other stalwarts on the board. Looking at cards like Rabble and Masquerade, with Hinterland cards mixed in, really messes with my decision making. If I play unregistered, is this the same as essentially practicing? That might be the solution.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 12:09:29 pm by ChaosRed »
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Epoch

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2011, 12:28:39 pm »
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Well, just because people keep playing with Hinterlands cards, I stumbled on the Hunting Tunnels in a real game...

I just tried several practice games with Tunnel/Warehouse, and it was... fine.  I tended to get 4 Provinces on turn 15 or so -- but I also had 3 Tunnels, so racing against BM, I would come out ahead.

But it's not magic holy-god-4-Provinces-turn-11 stuff.

My methodology:  Open Tunnel/Warehouse, then buy up to 3 Tunnels & 3 Warehouses, then you start getting Province buys and Gold buys.
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Copernicus

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2011, 12:40:33 pm »
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This expansion has a learning curve, most especially with other stalwarts on the board. Looking at cards like Rabble and Masquerade, with Hinterland cards mixed in, really messes with my decision making. If I play unregistered, is this the same as essentially practicing? That might be the solution.

The main thing this expansion does is require looking 1 or 2 turns ahead.  Previously in Dominion, a player could reasonably do well by concentrating on this turn.  The extent of planning for the future was figuring out how much money or special actions were left in the deck and deciding when to go green.

Now, the decision on what to buy will also directly impact the next turn.  It's fun, but it leads to people freezing up as they have to think over two turns constantly.
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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2011, 12:44:03 pm »
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On a side note, it is a shame that Isotropic is going away all too soon.  I would gladly pay a subscription fee.  I do intend to buy the commercial version when it appears, but I doubt it will have the simplistic beauty of this format.  Cheers.
Sorry to be out of the loop, but I hadn't heard anything about this. Can I get a link to the relevant discussion?
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DStu

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2011, 12:48:08 pm »
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I think a survey of the standard literature to the topic can be found here
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2011, 01:03:28 pm »
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Mandarin: A cheap gold. As already pointed out, combos well with Black Market.
Mandarin is nowhere near a cheap gold, imo. Mandarin seems like it's often worse than silver, since you have to put a card back on your deck. If it's a victory card, you bureaucrat'd yourself and are going to have a worse next turn. If it's a treasure, you're losing money, so you're not really getting $3. And if it's an action, you would have been able to play the action instead had you just had silver instead of mandarin, and the result would probably have been better. I think it's only better than silver if you want to save specific cards for later (like province in a tournament game, or a fool's gold) or if you're doing the black market thing.
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