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[ackack]

Heck, 2 VP on a 3 cost card isn't that bad for any reason. Really. It will totally change like every endgame.

Yeah, I think the $/VP ratio is definitely an interesting thing about it. Compare with Farmland, where the entire justification of the card has to be endgame gimmicks. Well, okay, with Hinterlands cards I'm sure we can find instances where spending $6 on 2 VP and a Remodel to gain some goofy card pays off. But it seems to me the main purpose of that card is to allow (or cutoff) endgame catchup tricks.

added: And yeah, I think keeping Tunnel on top of the deck is going to be situational in Spy/Pool games. If you have the capacity to force discards, often they will too. Is it worth making them have a dead card this hand to risk giving them an extra Gold? In the late game the answer is clearly yes, but earlier I think that's far from obvious.

Definitely this set adds a lot of depth and different dimensions, but man am I fearing the slow games.

[guided]

Does Chancellor trigger Tunnel?

According to the BGG thread, no. It must be in the card FAQ (so far only in the German rulebook) since the German folks who translated it are pretty sure about that.


edit: Also, a-ha, Chancellor doesn't tell you to "discard" anything. So it makes sense.

[Donald X.]

Does Chancellor trigger Tunnel? It doesn't say to discard your deck, instead it states to place the deck in the discard pile, which would cause Tunnel to be discarded. It's a semantic distinction but still good to know.

Chancellor, Trusty Steed, and Tunnel having been trashed during a Possession turn do not trigger Tunnel.

[Epoch]

added: And yeah, I think keeping Tunnel on top of the deck is going to be situational in Spy/Pool games. If you have the capacity to force discards, often they will too.

...But so what?  You're saying that they might be able to discard Tunnel for Gold, so to prevent that possibility, you should definitely discard Tunnel for Gold?  What?

I'm sure that we can come up with some convoluted scenario (in addition to Possession) where it makes sense to Spy away a Tunnel.  I'm equally sure that 99% (at least!) of the time, the correct play when your opponent has a Tunnel on the top of your deck and you've played Spy is "don't let them discard."

[ackack]

...But so what?  You're saying that they might be able to discard Tunnel for Gold, so to prevent that possibility, you should definitely discard Tunnel for Gold?  What?

Yeah, I think my brain was still stuck on my previous interpretation. I agree that makes no sense. added: I guess when I said it's better for Tunnel, what I still think is true is being left with a Tunnel on top of your deck is not a very bad outcome.

[HiveMindEmulator]

You know, thief really isn't that bad. It's not. Like, given the choice, in a 2 player game, between big money and big money thief, take the thief and you'll win very often. With more players, it's quite strong. So I'm expecting Noble Brigand to be really good. You just need to know when to buy it.

I second the comment about thief. The reason thief if one of the "four pillars of altering the base game" (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6108150#6108150) is that it makes you leery of going for a money-heavy strat, since your opponent(s) can react by getting thief and messing you up. I think pirate ship did a much better job of this in seaside, and I think noble brigand will potentially do it even better now. It's less risky since even if you "miss", you still at least get +$1 out of it. Plus it does the attack an extra time right when you buy it, so you don't even have to shuffle it in before it starts to work.

[WanderingWinder]

You know, one thing I want to say about hinterlands... many of the cards that were previously 'must-buys' are well-countered.

[Buttons]

I guess as I think about Tunnel it becomes a little more reasonable: the more you use its reaction, the harder it is to keep doing so (because those Golds will start to hamper whatever discard-engine you've got going). But at 2 VP I still have a very hard time seeing why it doesn't cost $4, given all the times in an endgame when I've spent that much on just an Estate. Surely the Secret History will enlighten me, but for now it just seems crazy wrong.

Scheme + King's Court + Your Favorite Card = best buddies for the rest of the game. The best part is that you don't even need to be lucky to get them all at once, since Scheme does the coördinating for you.

[Epoch]

How do we feel about Minion/Tunnel?  Maybe even better ability to discard your deck than Warehouse, but obviously $5 buy, and arguably if you've got a good Minion deck going, you don't want Gold, you just want to buy Provinces and win.

[HiveMindEmulator]

But at 2 VP I still have a very hard time seeing why it doesn't cost $4, given all the times in an endgame when I've spent that much on just an Estate. Surely the Secret History will enlighten me, but for now it just seems crazy wrong.

Cards are generally as cheap as they can be without breaking anything. The reasons that make things cost $4 rather than $3 are:
1. Breaks stuff if you can open with two of them (sea hag, militia, etc.)
2. Too strong if you can just buy one literally every turn (caravan, tournament, etc.)

Tunnel does not satisfy either of these conditions, so it's ok at $3.

[chwhite]

I'm willing to bet that the best part of Noble Brigand is that it not just steals Silver and Gold, dinging money strategies, but that it *also* gives Copper to players going super-action-heavy.  So basically it works against every kind of deck (save perhaps strategies based around pyrite or Prosperity, or...uh... Coppersmith?).  I bet it's still not overpowering, but it is going to be annoying.

You know, one thing I want to say about hinterlands... many of the cards that were previously 'must-buys' are well-countered.

Yeah, this.

[HiveMindEmulator]

How do we feel about Minion/Tunnel?  Maybe even better ability to discard your deck than Warehouse, but obviously $5 buy, and arguably if you've got a good Minion deck going, you don't want Gold, you just want to buy Provinces and win.

The thing with minion is you end up giving your opponent gold when they discard their hand (presuming they have tunnels as well), and they don't even have to buy a minion to benefit from it.

[Epoch]

Huh, a couple of things about Noble Brigand:

You can buy it on turn 2 (if you're player 1) or turn 1 (if you're player 2) to alter your opponent's shuffle pattern.  After playing around with this a bit, I think that I've mostly decided that this is not to your advantage, though if you think you have less than a 33% chance of winning (say, me vs. WanderingWinder), and your opponent opened Silver it has a 33% chance of being "screw you, you lose your turn 1 buy and I get a free Silver."

If you're being careful on turn 3 (if you're player 2) or turn 4 (if you're player 1), you can say, "I know that my opponent does/does not have a Silver in their 2 card Draw deck, and guarantee a steal if my opponent does have it there."

[Epoch]

The thing with minion is you end up giving your opponent gold when they discard their hand (presuming they have tunnels as well), and they don't even have to buy a minion to benefit from it.

Yes, but I feel like you guys are not giving enough credence to the pain involved in buying Tunnels early.  I mean, if you're going to get Minioned, and thus end up with a 4 card hand, you really want to increase the odds that your 4 card hand has a green card in it and thus you're effectively at a 3 card hand?

Well, maybe if you're Minion too, but...  yeah.  I suspect that the actual answer with Minion/Tunnel is that it's very high-variance.

[Buttons]

Cards are generally as cheap as they can be without breaking anything. The reasons that make things cost $4 rather than $3 are:
1. Breaks stuff if you can open with two of them (sea hag, militia, etc.)
2. Too strong if you can just buy one literally every turn (caravan, tournament, etc.)

Tunnel does not satisfy either of these conditions, so it's ok at $3.

Huh! That's a pretty good answer. I'm not entirely convinced that all the current $4 cards break one of those rules, but the exceptions are mostly the ones that are already considered underpowered (e.g. Navigator). I think I'm satisfied.

[jimjam]

Horse Traders + Tunnel should be pretty effective, though maybe not against Minion.

[biopower]

Horse Traders + Tunnel should be pretty effective, though maybe not against Minion.

Why not? Horse Traders is good at defending against Minion by itself; I don't see why adding Tunnel changes that.

[WanderingWinder]

Horse Traders + Tunnel should be pretty effective, though maybe not against Minion.

Why not? Horse Traders is good at defending against Minion by itself; I don't see why adding Tunnel changes that.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

[jimjam]

Hmm, actually after a second thought it should do pretty well against Minion. I was thinking that with HT you wouldn't get to discard Tunnel, but you could just execute the combo on your own turn.

edit: haha, not being sarcastic, just didn't think it through completely

[cayvie]

You know, one thing I want to say about hinterlands... many of the cards that were previously 'must-buys' are well-countered.

Care to elaborate?

[jimjam]

Ambassador/Cache=fast catch-up in buying power and nigh-Mountebank level of attack.

[WanderingWinder]

Doug Z cannot possibly get online soon enough. Even if he released these to Isotropic 5 minutes ago while I was reading these over at BGG, it would not be soon enough. YAYAYAYYAYAYAYAYAYYAYAYAAYAYAYYAAYYAYAYAYYAYAYAYAYAYAYYAYAYAYAYAYAAYY!!!!!!!!

Edit: I checked. He didn't

I'm currently playing a game with spice merchant!

[rod-]

Must say that my first game with stables was a real disappointment.  The card was at least as powerful as expected - I drew my deck every turn after I got past the first two of them, except for the one time i whiffed and drew 5 non-treasures and got gooned.  Game went pretty long, being a colony game with no +actions, goons and new cards, but the turns went even longer... "oh look as i draw and discard X,Y,Z,A,B,C,X again, X a third time, and ok i finally have all of my money"  Hopefully it was just the board's fault.

[Anon79]

Strange that it's not been mentioned - my first thought upon seeing Tunnel is "Hunting Party"

Edit: then again maybe Hunting Party is too fast for Tunnel? 2VP for $3 it may be, but it's not going to overturn a 3-5 Province split if you're distracted by Tunnels and opponent isn't.

[biopower]

Strange that it's not been mentioned - my first thought upon seeing Tunnel is "Hunting Party"

Well, unlike a lot of the other cards, for Hunting Party you need to have bought at least two, and both have it in your hand and be revealed on the draw. That's not quite as good as simply discarding it with Warehouse or Cellar.