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Author Topic: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom  (Read 8558 times)

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SCSN

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2013, 06:11:54 pm »
0

Just for the fun of it, I tried to come up with a kingdom where University couldn't gain any cards but you'd still want to buy it as a 2+P costing Necropolis:

Transmute, Scrying Pool, University, Altar, Fairgrounds, Farmland, Goons, Hunting Grounds, Forge, Peddler

Example game: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130520/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1369087591538.txt

Earlier attempt where even the bot initially goes for something similar: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130520/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1369086680407.txt
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Just a Rube

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2013, 07:42:59 pm »
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Even without the Potion you can reach $5 via Expand or Altar -> Overgrown Estate/Copper/Silver/Gold/HoP.

Not if you play with Estates.

Down to one card short--we're out Vineyard and Transmute, but Mandarin also meets the qualifications. Death Cart is close but introduces the Ruins.
Band of misfits?
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ftl

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2013, 08:13:50 pm »
+2

OK, here's my attempt - a list of all cards which have portions which literally cannot be used in some Kingdoms. Also mentioned cards which can't do anything but play more of themselves for no other benefit (assuming that cards that specifically care about cards played or card variety aren't in the Kingdom).

In the base game:

Moat's defense against attacks might be literally useless in a game without attacks.
Throne Room - might be considered useless in a game with no other actions.

Intrigue:
Secret Chamber - its reaction component might be literally useless in a game without attacks.

Seaside:
Lighthouse's defense against attacks might be literally useless in a game without attacks.

Alchemy:
In a kingdom with no potion-cost cards, Apprentice can't ever give +2 cards for trashing a card with potion in its cost.
Vineyard might be permanently worth 0 in a kingdom with no actions.
University might be unable to gain anything and it might be impossible to use its +2 actions in a game with no actions.
Golem might be unable to play any actions in a kingdom with no actions.

Prosperity:
KC can't target anything in a kingdom with no actions.
Quarry's ability does nothing in a kingdom with no actions.

Cornucopia:
Horse Traders could be in a kingdom with no attacks to activate its reaction ability.

Hinterlands:
Tunnel's reaction ability might be impossible to activate when the kingdom doesn't provide a way to discard it except during clean-up.

Dark Ages:
Squire has an ability that can't be used in Kingdoms without an attack card in them.
Overgrown Estate, Market Square, Fortress, Catacombs, Cultist, Rats, and Hunting Grounds all have abilities that may be literally impossible to activate on kingdoms without trashing.
Band of Misfits might be unplayable if there is no action card in the supply costing less than it.
Procession can't do anything in a kingdom with no other actions.
Necropolis does nothing in a kingdom with no actions.
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liopoil

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2013, 08:19:28 pm »
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the second +action on card that give +2 actions is useless in a kingdom without terminals.
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ConMan

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2013, 08:23:23 pm »
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Throne Room - might be considered useless in a game with no other actions.
KC can't target anything in a kingdom with no actions.
Procession can't do anything in a kingdom with no other actions.
Also, if the only action card is one that has no additional benefit when played twice, like Counting House.
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Kirian

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 09:02:14 pm »
+1

Throne Room - might be considered useless in a game with no other actions.
KC can't target anything in a kingdom with no actions.
Procession can't do anything in a kingdom with no other actions.
Also, if the only action card is one that has no additional benefit when played twice, like Counting House.

TR/KC/Procession/Golem/Counting House FTW.
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jaybeez

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2013, 10:31:32 pm »
+1

TR/KC/Procession/Golem/Counting House FTW.
Does the kingdom have +Buy?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2013, 10:59:58 pm »
+2

the second +action on card that give +2 actions is useless in a kingdom without terminals.

Edge case... Tournament into Diadem. ;D
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liopoil

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2013, 11:38:27 pm »
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Ahhh, but that kingdom does have terminals! followers, princess, and potentially trusty steed!
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Just a Rube

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2013, 11:57:41 pm »
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OK, here's my attempt - a list of all cards which have portions which literally cannot be used in some Kingdoms. Also mentioned cards which can't do anything but play more of themselves for no other benefit (assuming that cards that specifically care about cards played or card variety aren't in the Kingdom).

Intrigue:
Secret Chamber - its reaction component might be literally useless in a game without attacks.

You left out conspirator in a kingdom with no nonterminals.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 12:21:50 am »
0

Even without the Potion you can reach $5 via Expand or Altar -> Overgrown Estate/Copper/Silver/Gold/HoP.

Not if you play with Estates.

Down to one card short--we're out Vineyard and Transmute, but Mandarin also meets the qualifications. Death Cart is close but introduces the Ruins.
Band of misfits?

Has no effect when played, but is the 5th unique for Horn. The difficulty is finding another $5+ card that either (a) cannot be played, (b) reduces your handsize by more than itself when played, or (c) removes itself or another card from play to avoid counting for HoP.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:22:53 am by Stealth Tomato »
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 12:24:09 am »
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OK, here's my attempt - a list of all cards which have portions which literally cannot be used in some Kingdoms. Also mentioned cards which can't do anything but play more of themselves for no other benefit (assuming that cards that specifically care about cards played or card variety aren't in the Kingdom).

Intrigue:
Secret Chamber - its reaction component might be literally useless in a game without attacks.

You left out conspirator in a kingdom with no nonterminals.

Note: You have to be slightly more specific there, because Throne Room, Procession, and King's Court are not non-terminal but can activate Conspirator.
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PSGarak

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2013, 01:11:45 am »
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Even in a kingdom with Actions, it's possible for the card-gain portion of Procession to have no way to function. The simplest case is if every action costs $4. The second-simplest is if all actions have an even-numbered cost ($2, $4, or $6, or maybe Peddler too). In general, if all actions are spaced out by more than $1, gaining a card from Procession is impossible.
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AJD

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2013, 01:40:31 am »
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I guess the next question is, is there any kingdom with no non-terminal Actions in which Conspirator is a good buy?

I suppose you might want one copy of Conspirator in a kingdom with Fairgrounds and mostly Treasures.
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shMerker

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2013, 02:08:46 am »
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the second +action on card that give +2 actions is useless in a kingdom without terminals.

Edge case: Diadem turns villages into $3 Peddlers

Edit: Just realized there's no such thing as a kingdom with no terminals that includes Diadem because of Followers.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:10:56 am by shMerker »
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ConMan

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2013, 02:32:29 am »
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TR/KC/Procession/Golem/Counting House FTW.
Do you mean all at once? Because Golem/CH would be a horribly inefficient way to get all the Coppers from your deck into your hand, but I'd love to see a Kingdom where it's a playable strategy.
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Davio

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2013, 03:52:41 am »
+1

Well, without a +Buy it's just a sad combo.

Slapping a +Buy on Counting House might have been a nice way to "fix" that card.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2013, 12:34:27 pm »
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Well, without a +Buy it's just a sad combo.

Slapping a +Buy on Counting House might have been a nice way to "fix" that card.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm pretty sure that with a built-in +buy, Counting House would be way too strong.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2013, 08:27:48 pm »
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Even in a kingdom with Actions, it's possible for the card-gain portion of Procession to have no way to function. The simplest case is if every action costs $4. The second-simplest is if all actions have an even-numbered cost ($2, $4, or $6, or maybe Peddler too). In general, if all actions are spaced out by more than $1, gaining a card from Procession is impossible.
One word: Bridge.
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sudgy

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2013, 08:41:16 pm »
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Even in a kingdom with Actions, it's possible for the card-gain portion of Procession to have no way to function. The simplest case is if every action costs $4. The second-simplest is if all actions have an even-numbered cost ($2, $4, or $6, or maybe Peddler too). In general, if all actions are spaced out by more than $1, gaining a card from Procession is impossible.
One word: Bridge.

Two: Bridge, Highway

Drat, never mind, as Procession could gain the Highway...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

StrongRhino

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2013, 08:45:46 pm »
0

Even in a kingdom with Actions, it's possible for the card-gain portion of Procession to have no way to function. The simplest case is if every action costs $4. The second-simplest is if all actions have an even-numbered cost ($2, $4, or $6, or maybe Peddler too). In general, if all actions are spaced out by more than $1, gaining a card from Procession is impossible.
One word: Bridge.

Two: Bridge, Highway

Drat, never mind, as Procession could gain the Highway...
That's what I thought at first, but then I was like "oh yeah, 5"
Guess we have to wait for guilds for a card that increases cards prices by 1.
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PSGarak

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 12:22:43 am »
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Even in a kingdom with Actions, it's possible for the card-gain portion of Procession to have no way to function. The simplest case is if every action costs $4. The second-simplest is if all actions have an even-numbered cost ($2, $4, or $6, or maybe Peddler too). In general, if all actions are spaced out by more than $1, gaining a card from Procession is impossible.
One word: Bridge.
Ok yes, you're right that Bridge can't be one of the $4's. While the edge cases have edge cases, my main point still stands, though: it's quite possible to build a kingdom with a large number (even 11!) Action cards, where the gain clause of Procession can never succeed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 09:28:25 am »
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I guess the next question is, is there any kingdom with no non-terminal Actions in which Conspirator is a good buy?

I suppose you might want one copy of Conspirator in a kingdom with Fairgrounds and mostly Treasures.

While I seriously doubt that it would actually be the best move; here's a couple cases where you might prefer Conspirator to Silver:

Thief
Noble Brigand
Pirate Ship
Menagerie
Governor (you want 4s for when your opponent remodels)
Jester (you'd rather your opponent hit Conspirator than Silver)
Fairgrounds (Buying a useless or inferior card for your 10th card is often the right move, but you wouldn't do it til the game is almost over)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 10:59:51 am by GendoIkari »
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Schneau

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 10:12:41 am »
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I guess the next question is, is there any kingdom with no non-terminal Actions in which Conspirator is a good buy?

I suppose you might want one copy of Conspirator in a kingdom with Fairgrounds and mostly Treasures.

While I seriously doubt that it would actually be the best move; here's a couple cases where you might prefer Conspirator to Silver:

Thief
Noble Brigand
Pirate Ship
Menagerie
Governor (you want 4s for when your opponent remodels)
Jester (you'd rather your opponent hit Conspirator than Silver)
Fairgrounds (Buying a useless or inferior card for your 10th card is often the right move, but you wouldn't do it til the game is almost over)

Menagerie and Governor are non-terminals.
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Lhurgoyf

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 11:46:28 am »
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While I seriously doubt that it would actually be the best move; here's a couple cases where you might prefer Conspirator to Silver:
[...]

Jester (you'd rather your opponent hit Conspirator than Silver)

Why? Because a Silver for their deck would be better? Well then it would also be better in your deck, because it doesn't collide with your own Jester.
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