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Author Topic: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom  (Read 8557 times)

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GendoIkari

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Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« on: May 20, 2013, 12:50:09 pm »
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The strengths and weaknesses of any card depend on the Kingdom, of course. But As was pointed out in another thread, Conspirator actually has a clause that flat-out might not work, depending on the Kingdom... if the Kingdom has only terminal actions (and no TR, KC, Procession, Golem), then it can't ever give +1 card +1 action... it will just be a terminal silver for $4.

What other cards are like that?

My list so far:

Tunnel (sometimes there's no possible way to discard except during cleanup phase).
Vagrant (can draw Ruins, but only in certain Kingdoms).
Apprentice (gives +2 cards for trashing potion-cost, but might not have any potion-cost cards in the Kingdom).
Lots of "when you trash" from Dark Ages that don't provide a way to trash themselves.
-Overgrown Estate
-Market Square
-Rats
-Squire
-Catacombs
-Feodum
-Hunting Grounds
-Cultist
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Schlippy

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2013, 01:29:45 pm »
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Scout is pretty terrible except in very rare edge case games. Procession can only shine with specific cards at specific costs, and to an extent the same is true for develop. Cache is often relatively useless unless there are cards in the Kingdom that want extra cards in your deck or reactions like Trader or Watchtower. Saboteur actually does exceptionally well in some DA kingdoms (especially with Knights and/or Rebuild) but is a terrible card in most other kingdoms. Counting House, Stash, Treasure Map, Philosophers Stone and Peddler are relatively bad without certain other cards as enablers. Adventurer is usually bad without trashing. Curse is in every kingdom but is (usually) a pretty bad card without Curses or an Engine with Masquerade or Ambassador.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 01:32:36 pm by Schlippy »
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shMerker

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2013, 01:30:20 pm »
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Conspirator is interesting because without a way to get actions there really isn't a use for them (EC: dealing with treasure-trashing attacks? that still seeems incredibly hard to justify) but most of the ones you listed still do something significant for you even if you can't invoke all of their text. Apprentice and Vagrant in particular don't really change much when potions/ruins/shelters aren't present.

If you're just looking for cards which have potentially uninvokable text there's also Moat, Horse Traders, Beggar, Secret Chamber, Lighthouse(HM) and any other card that reacts to "when an attack is played" that I might have missed. It's also possible to have a kingdom in which there are no cards gainable by University.
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DG

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2013, 01:39:06 pm »
+1

Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.
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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2013, 01:52:44 pm »
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Band of Misfits is another obvious one.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2013, 02:02:11 pm »
+3

Scout is pretty terrible

The idea is to come up with cards that have text that might be literally useless given the "right" kingdom -- Scout's ability doesn't qualify because Estates, Duchies, and Provinces are always in the game so as bad as the ability is, it will never be impossible to use.
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sudgy

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2013, 02:07:14 pm »
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Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.

Scheme can be used to put itself on the deck.  It's not useful, but you're still doing something.

Actually, for that matter, the first three can be played on themselves as well.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Schlippy

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 02:12:17 pm »
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Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.
Village, Fortress, Walled Village and Quarry too.
But except Quarry all of them are useful in a game with Vineyards. :p
Graverobber can do something when Farmland is in the Kingdom.
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Awaclus

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2013, 02:13:27 pm »
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Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.

Scheme can be used to put itself on the deck.  It's not useful, but you're still doing something.

Actually, for that matter, the first three can be played on themselves as well.
Graverobber too, and it's even useful.
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sudgy

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 02:15:33 pm »
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Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.

Scheme can be used to put itself on the deck.  It's not useful, but you're still doing something.

Actually, for that matter, the first three can be played on themselves as well.
Graverobber too, and it's even useful.

Well, I don't have Dark Ages yet so I don't quite know exactly what it does.  I know it has something to do with remodeling actions and gaining from the trash though.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

shMerker

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2013, 02:17:43 pm »
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I could see scheme being useful as an enabler for Horn of Plenty in a kingdom otherwise bereft of actions.
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Davio

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 02:29:57 pm »
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Well, Moat without attacks seems pretty pointless.

I know it's not, because I think I've used it in games without attacks plenty of times (Menagerie, heavy-trashing and lots of Villages, etc), but it seems like you're just abusing it if you never get attacked.

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qmech

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 02:38:15 pm »
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Well, I don't have Dark Ages yet so I don't quite know exactly what it does.  I know it has something to do with remodeling actions and gaining from the trash though.

Graverobber either Expands an Action, or gains a card from $3 to $6 from the Trash.  Both of those can be activated with only Graverobbers, so it doesn't fit here.
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Awaclus

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2013, 03:04:06 pm »
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Well, I don't have Dark Ages yet so I don't quite know exactly what it does.  I know it has something to do with remodeling actions and gaining from the trash though.

Graverobber either Expands an Action, or gains a card from $3 to $6 from the Trash.  Both of those can be activated with only Graverobbers, so it doesn't fit here.
And it's worth noting that it Expands an Action into anything. So you can gain Provinces if you buy tons of Graverobbers.
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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 04:05:56 pm »
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In a given game, Fairgrounds has a maximum value, and that value depends on what other cards are in the kingdom (like whether Colony/Platinum and/or Shelters are being used, whether there are Ruins in the Supply, etc.)
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 04:39:51 pm »
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Scheme can be used to put itself on the deck.  It's not useful, but you're still doing something.

Scheme can be used for shuffle control in edge cases, e.g. the cards left in your deck at cleanup are GGG, so you topdeck two Schemes, then refuse to play them so you can buy a Province and reshuffle the Gold.

Judging from the list in the OP, Moat and any other reaction to Attacks counts, since one provision of the card is negated. Squire's gaining provision is also negated in such games.

University is a true example in setups without any other Action cards, as the only thing it grants is the ability to play another University.

A number of cards come close: Certain setups can make Upgrade's and Remake's gain provisions only applicable to Silver and Gold. Library's Action provision can apply only to other Libraries. Talisman can be made to apply only to itself, Silver, Copper, and Curse.

In the following Kingdom, Horn of Plenty can only gain Curse, Copper, Estate, Silver, or Potion:
Vineyard
Transmute
Horn of Plenty
Trading Post
Pillage
Duke
Altar
Fairgrounds
Farmland
Expand


e: Actually not true, although there are multiple Kingdoms where HoP can only gain Curse, Copper, Estate, Silver, or one other card. Just insert Mandarin instead of Vineyard, and any of the following for Transmute: Develop, Salvager, Remodel, Feast, Embargo, Treasure Map, Trade Route, Bishop, Remake, Horse Traders, Trader, Forager. The other gainable card will be that card.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 04:57:02 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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qmech

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2013, 04:42:45 pm »
+1

In the following Kingdom, Horn of Plenty can only gain Curse, Copper, Estate, Silver, or Potion:

Copper/Silver/Gold/Potion/Horn of Plenty is enough for a $5.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 04:47:26 pm »
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In the following Kingdom, Horn of Plenty can only gain Curse, Copper, Estate, Silver, or Potion:

Copper/Silver/Gold/Potion/Horn of Plenty is enough for a $5.

Damn, two cards short then.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 04:48:30 pm »
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Procession, Throne, King's court, Golem, Scheme, and Graverobber can fail in kingdoms with only treasures and victory cards.
Graverobber can always trash other Graverobbers to gain Provinces. I think a straight Graverobber strategy is inefficient, but it is still technically not useless.
Also, Farmland can put cards into the trash which Graverobber can later dig back out.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2013, 04:48:44 pm »
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Scheme can be used to put itself on the deck.  It's not useful, but you're still doing something.

Scheme can be used for shuffle control in edge cases, e.g. the cards left in your deck at cleanup are GGG, so you topdeck two Schemes, then refuse to play them so you can buy a Province and reshuffle the Gold.

Judging from the list in the OP, Moat and any other reaction to Attacks counts, since one provision of the card is negated. Squire's gaining provision is also negated in such games.

University is a true example in setups without any other Action cards, as the only thing it grants is the ability to play another University.

A number of cards come close: Certain setups can make Upgrade's and Remake's gain provisions only applicable to Silver and Gold. Library's Action provision can apply only to other Libraries. Talisman can be made to apply only to itself, Silver, Copper, and Curse.

In the following Kingdom, Horn of Plenty can only gain Curse, Copper, Estate, Silver, or Potion:
Vineyard
Transmute
Horn of Plenty
Trading Post
Pillage
Duke
Altar
Fairgrounds
Farmland
Expand
That last list is false. If there is a potion cost card, HoP can gain itself. Copper, Silver, Gold, Potion, HoP is 5.
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SCSN

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2013, 04:53:45 pm »
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Even without the Potion you can reach $5 via Expand or Altar -> Overgrown Estate/Copper/Silver/Gold/HoP.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2013, 04:58:27 pm »
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Even without the Potion you can reach $5 via Expand or Altar -> Overgrown Estate/Copper/Silver/Gold/HoP.

Not if you play with Estates.

Down to one card short--we're out Vineyard and Transmute, but Mandarin also meets the qualifications. Death Cart is close but introduces the Ruins.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:03:54 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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SCSN

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2013, 05:06:41 pm »
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You could add Gardens, Silk Road, Feodum, Tunnel, Remake, and, assuming you don't play with OE, Develop or Remodel.

Edit: Actually, playing without Shelters is a necessity for all of them, otherwise you could still have Necropolis/C/S/G/HoP.

Edit 2: This will actually make it into "gaining a card of cost at most $4", which isn't really a solution to the original puzzle.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:33:56 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Kirian

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2013, 05:17:17 pm »
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Even without the Potion you can reach $5 via Expand or Altar -> Overgrown Estate/Copper/Silver/Gold/HoP.

Not if you play with Estates.

Any action or Treasure + C/S/G/HOP gains a $5.

----

I feel like this game needs a better definition:

Name a card X and a set Y, for which the presence of one member of set Y makes card X strictly better than, or strictly worse than, the same card X on a board without any member of that sets.

So, for instance, because Conspirator is the best example:

On a board with no cards that give +Action and no KC/TR/Procession, Conspirator is strictly worse than if those cards were on the board.
On a board with either no trashers or no attacks, Squire is strictly worse than if those cards were on the board.
On a board where no cards cause you to discard a card other than in the cleanup phase, Tunnel is strictly worse than if those cards were on the board.

By this criterion, Apprentice and Vagrant, for instance, do not qualify.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Cards that literally depend on the Kingdom
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2013, 05:31:39 pm »
+1

I thought the original idea was fairly simple -- parts of cards where, given certain kingdoms, that part will never activate.  For instance, a Moat in a game with no attacks:  the reaction part will never activate no matter what.
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