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Author Topic: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?  (Read 18627 times)

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ftl

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2013, 04:58:56 am »
0

Yeah if you go to goko.com and click on your name in the top right, you can change it. Doesn't work from the dominion page.
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hsiale

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2013, 06:53:03 am »
+2

(Related to the point of recognizing people from here or iso: At least I have a different name in Goko due to having registered with Google+ during the beta. Is it still impossible to change the name?)
I think it's possible somewhere on the Goko main page. But I think the best way to be recognized as f.ds member is to get yourself a custom avatar - having one clearly shows you use Nutki's extension so most probably use this forum as well.
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aaron0013

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2013, 09:41:49 am »
0

Back to the main topic, I think newbies are better off not playing the bots. Especially if you are okay playing with the base set, it can be very enjoyable playing with new players. (Or you can just buy the cards and host games with new players)  The best thing about it is you don't lose your ranking if you lose! When I started climbing the ladder, I never set restrictions, and in about 15 games I was in close to 5000.  IMO that is when you should start to set restrictions.  No one wants to loose a game to a noob and drop 500 points.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2013, 11:37:53 am »
+3

Every ambitious player wants to play against stronger opponents.  Playing against weaker opponents is a courtesy -- one that's necessary for the system to work in equilibrium.

If ratings requirements bug you, ask yourself whether your average opponent has been weaker or stronger than you.  Actually, most of us are terrible at judging our own ability, so just check your win-loss ratio.  ;)

A ratio better than 1-to-1 means you mostly play weaker opponents... you're a contributor.
A ratio worse than 1-to-1 means you mostly play stronger opponents... you're a leech.

Folks near the top are contributors perforce; folks near the bottom are leeches for the same reason.  But if you're in the middle and you're a leech, then you really shouldn't be griping about requirements you don't meet.  Instead, consider extending to weaker players the courtesy that has already been extended to you.
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RTT

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2013, 11:52:46 am »
0


A ratio better than 1-to-1 means you mostly play weaker opponents... you're a contributor.
A ratio worse than 1-to-1 means you mostly play stronger opponents... you're a leech.

Thank god i´m not a leech  ;)
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Lekkit

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2013, 11:56:25 am »
+1

I was a contributor even when leeching on other's sets. ;) I really don't mind playing people ranked a lot lower than me most of the time. I prefer to play against people who know the game and know the cards, but I don't always care about that. Sometimes I want a nice and tense game. That's when I put a rating restriction in the title. And people tend to get to play with me even if they have lower rating than the one I've set as a requirement. I prefer to play over not playing.
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microman

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2013, 11:20:21 pm »
0

I was 40+ on Iso and accepted matches against any registered player. I didn't want to be elitist and restrict myself just to get higher ratings.
I don't think you are being an elitist by requesting to play players higher than a certain score or rank. Although, I do understand and respect where you are coming from, it can be really annoying to play a newbie who might not know some of the cards on the board and then hear them complain or say "well I didn't really understand those cards, I've never played with them before".  A person should know when they are playing a player with a high rank that maybe some of the cards will be foreign to them. Also, the pro rating drop from losing to lower ranked players is frustrating too.
I think my most fun matches have been with inexperienced players, because they didn't mind losing and wanted to learn what they did wrong. Heck, and of course they even won some of the matches.
Nicely put! Although most of the time newbie players that are humble and ask what they did wrong, usually turn out to eventually be really good players with some practice.  The ones that complain and blame probably never hit their full potential.  In my case it was very true that once I started having more experienced players critic me after I lost, was really when I started to greatly improve my skill.  I just wish goko's rating system was a tad more forgiving.
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Davio

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 06:29:12 am »
0

Putting my differences with the system in place aside, I have to admit I think it's pretty accurate just by looking at the top 25 or so players.

I see a lot of names that were also on top on the Iso leaderboard, so if you're a good player, you'll get an appropriate high rating in the end.

I'm even proud that I'm in the top 25 (~6200) given how little games I play, maybe 5 per day maximum, so it seems with this rating system there is less focus on uncertainty. And I don't even have any cards, full-leech-mode! :D

What I take away from it is this: I think I can hold my own and play competitively against anyone on the list and that's all that matters for me. I don't need to be on top, but I like to be good enough that I don't feel overwhelmed by anybody up there. It's a bit sad though that there are many kingdoms with blatant dominant strategies or, more likely, sub-strategies like: be the first to get or do X, making shuffle luck a big factor in those games. However, the randomness is also a feature, making it able to pull of some crazy comebacks. :)

I don't know how 4ks and 5ks feel about the system though.
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Kirian

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2013, 09:19:09 am »
0

I think there's another point that needs to be made here, and I'm going to sound like a bit of a jerk for saying it:

Not everyone can expect to be 5000+ rated.  Not everyone can expect to be 4000+ rated.  I think the estimates have been that a 4000 Goko rating is near a 10-15 Iso level.  The space below that is more than half the old Iso leaderboard.

Requesting to play with 4000+ if you're already 5000+ is not exactly keeping those with under 4000 rating from playing with people who are of approximately even skill... there are plenty of players with ratings in that range.
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Schlippy

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2013, 08:20:29 pm »
0

Putting my differences with the system in place aside, I have to admit I think it's pretty accurate just by looking at the top 25 or so players.

I see a lot of names that were also on top on the Iso leaderboard, so if you're a good player, you'll get an appropriate high rating in the end.

I'm even proud that I'm in the top 25 (~6200) given how little games I play, maybe 5 per day maximum, so it seems with this rating system there is less focus on uncertainty. And I don't even have any cards, full-leech-mode! :D

What I take away from it is this: I think I can hold my own and play competitively against anyone on the list and that's all that matters for me. I don't need to be on top, but I like to be good enough that I don't feel overwhelmed by anybody up there. It's a bit sad though that there are many kingdoms with blatant dominant strategies or, more likely, sub-strategies like: be the first to get or do X, making shuffle luck a big factor in those games. However, the randomness is also a feature, making it able to pull of some crazy comebacks. :)

I don't know how 4ks and 5ks feel about the system though.
I am 32 in the pro leaderboard and I am pretty sure I do not deserve it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 08:28:31 pm by Schlippy »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2013, 10:08:36 pm »
+1



This totally counts, right? Clearly I am in the top ten best Dominion players.  ???
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qmech

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2013, 04:05:05 am »
0

This totally counts, right? Clearly I am in the top ten best Dominion players.  ???

Don't disparage the leaderboard!  We need to keep the fiction alive!
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Robz888

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2013, 02:29:49 am »
0

I mean, the leaderboard can't be that inaccurate. It has Stef and WanderingWinder at the top, followed closely by Rabid and lespeutere.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2013, 10:57:53 am »
+1

I mean, the leaderboard can't be that inaccurate. It has Stef and WanderingWinder at the top, followed closely by Rabid and lespeutere.




Then I lost a game. But still!  :P
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Robz888

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2013, 11:24:18 am »
0

I'm number 10, now!

(Do I risk playing a game, almost certainly dropping like 6 spots? )
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DStu

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2013, 11:33:08 am »
0

(Do I risk playing a game, almost certainly dropping like 6 spots? )
/chicken
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RTT

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2013, 12:26:58 pm »
+1

I mean, the leaderboard can't be that inaccurate. It has Stef and WanderingWinder at the top, followed closely by Rabid and lespeutere.




Then I lost a game. But still!  :P
Hey i´m in the top 10 too. this leader-board is in my opinion well balanced and totally representing the true skill of people.

Its definitely the best leader-board ever. much better the iso (where i was only level 25)
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GigaKnight

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2013, 12:54:57 pm »
0

Well, the rating only exists so that you might find players of equal skill. Playing someone of equal skill is fun if you can sometimes still learn something or have a real nail biter where small details matter a lot.

But with Dominion, there's so much randomness that when you're playing someone of comparable skill the game is most likely decided on shuffle luck instead of keen tactics. If you play a chess match against someone rated 100 points below you on the ELO system, say you're 1700 playing a 1600, you could win close to 100% of the games, simply because you know everything the 1600 knows and a bit more.

The rating system on Goko uses 4 significant digits and a ladder, corrupting the system in my view. If you create a ladder, you're making players play just for their rating instead of the fun the game offers. I think it's wrong that people should be worried about dropping any levels on a ladder over such a simple game. A ladder makes people scared of losing and stops innovation.

What I would have liked to see is just one significant digit or even one half and no ladder. Rate the players 1-5 stars or something. This way you can use the rating the way it was intended: To find players of similar skill.

The way the ladder affects you is in fact a choice, and I don't agree with it.
I'm not scared to try something new at all. Sometimes it makes me lose and that's ok. Usually my opponent is happy enough for the both of us.
Trying out new things or combo's I haven't seen before is the main reason I like playing this game.
Besides: if I lose a game I could have won, then my rating is temporarily a little bit lower then it's supposed to be. Future games will automatically compensate.
The only way my rating goes up in the long run is if I get better.

Although I like being on top of the leaderboard, I apparently care less about rating then you do. Yes, there is a lot of randomness in Dominion. However, there also are a lot of decisions. And those decisions have a huge impact on your chances. I see a lot of people blaming their bad luck where in fact they just played poorly. When I lose a game of Dominion, I almost always can find a point where I made a bad decision myself. And when I can't, I'm just not smart enough. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm yet to play a game of Dominion where I don't make any mistakes. This game is a lot more complicated then most people seem to realize.

Blaming your bad luck after the game kills your learning process.
Blaming your bad luck during the game stops you from 'making the best of you bad position'.
Blaming your bad luck in the chat isn't any fun for your opponent.
Really, there's barely ever any point in whining about bad luck.

...unless there is a need to save your own ego, which is both understandable and human.

Stef, I like pretty much all of what you've said here, but Davio's remarks about ladder psychology are a genuine concern and really keep some people from playing.  Ladder anxiety is enough of a concern that, for the first Starcraft 2 expansion, Blizzard added an entirely separate "Unranked" way to play.  The only difference, from what I understand, is that you never see your rank/MMR.  And more people are playing the game now.

So, yes, you do get to choose your response to being ranked.  But it's better for the game as a whole if you don't force everybody to make that choice.
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