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Author Topic: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?  (Read 18626 times)

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jsh357

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2013, 04:38:27 pm »
0

I don't care much about the 5000+ and 4000+ stuff, but I once saw someone with a 5000+ game.
Their rating?
4983.


Seriously?

It is possible that he lost a game and it put him under 5000 and didn't realize it.
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2013, 05:03:07 pm »
0

I don't care much about the 5000+ and 4000+ stuff, but I once saw someone with a 5000+ game.
Their rating?
4983.


Seriously?

It is possible that he lost a game and it put him under 5000 and didn't realize it.

Eh, still... when my rating drops below about 5500, I start asking for 4500+ instead of 5000+.  It's really tough to justify 5000+ if you're not well above 5000.

Also, my casual rating is like 3000 because I don't care about it... were you (StrongRhino) looking at his casual rating?
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2013, 05:06:52 pm »
0

I don't care much about the 5000+ and 4000+ stuff, but I once saw someone with a 5000+ game.
Their rating?
4983.


Seriously?

It is possible that he lost a game and it put him under 5000 and didn't realize it.

Also possible he fell victim to the bug that defaults your game's name to the last game you played, even if it was hosted by an opponent, and didn't notice.
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SCSN

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2013, 05:32:05 pm »
0

I don't actually see anything wrong with only wanting to play people who are higher rated than you are. I mean, he hosts the game, he can set the entry requirements as long as he's fine with the consequences (longer waiting times, being made fun of on the forums).
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StrongRhino

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2013, 05:59:06 pm »
0

I don't care much about the 5000+ and 4000+ stuff, but I once saw someone with a 5000+ game.
Their rating?
4983.


Seriously?

It is possible that he lost a game and it put him under 5000 and didn't realize it.

Eh, still... when my rating drops below about 5500, I start asking for 4500+ instead of 5000+.  It's really tough to justify 5000+ if you're not well above 5000.

Also, my casual rating is like 3000 because I don't care about it... were you (StrongRhino) looking at his casual rating?
Yeah, his casual was still 1000 or whatever the default is.
It was probably an accident, but even so, I don't actually care that much. It was just hilarious.
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snorkelbike

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2013, 07:47:24 pm »
0

I use it because I'd rather play someone who is decent at dominion. Those people tend to play a little bit faster, and it's a more worthwhile experience for me to play someone at my skill level. I'd rather have a game that requires me to think than being able to just go on autopilot after I see my opponent opened with something that's clearly not going to win.
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ashersky

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2013, 01:55:34 am »
0

I'm sometimes the annoying person below level joining games, but most of the time you'll accept me because you recognize the name from f.ds.

I sit around ~5000, give or take 200, but I don't play every day, and I lose ~100 ranking points per day I don't play.  So I come in after two days and I'm at 4788 or something, but I feel like I ought to get to play in the 5000s league, so I still join up.  But then I win a game and lose two and I'm at 4600, which is hard.  So then I'm looking at 4000+ games.

TLDR: the rankings are swingy, even at the low levels.
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hsiale

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2013, 04:06:53 am »
0

I play 3500+ because if I play a human opponent (which takes more time than playing a bot) I want to play an opponent that's better than the bot. My rating is around 4500.
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aaron0013

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2013, 10:14:39 am »
0

One time, I decided to see what would happen if I refreshed the page while playing a bot.  The result was dropping from #10 on the casual leaderboard to #80 something. That is an extreme case against a low ranked opponent.
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jsh357

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2013, 10:16:29 am »
0

One time, I decided to see what would happen if I refreshed the page while playing a bot.  The result was dropping from #10 on the casual leaderboard to #80 something. That is an extreme case against a low ranked opponent.

Yeah, I play the bots frequently as a procrastination tool, and losing makes my rating sink like a rock.
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jsh357

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 12:24:27 pm »
0

Another thing I've noticed: Players with less games / lower ratings tend to have more connection problems or just leave in the middle of games at times.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 02:37:17 pm »
+1

Another thing I've noticed: Players with less games / lower ratings tend to have more connection problems or just leave in the middle of games at times.

Maybe they have less games due to the connection issues?
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snorkelbike

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2013, 01:15:08 am »
0

JSH, you're currently playing a rated game with a player sporting a 0-0 record. C'mon, man.  :P
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2013, 04:57:57 am »
+27

As mentioned above, I'm still quite new to the Goko System and their ratings.
My first impression of the rating system is that it's actually quite good. Swingy, but good.
Yesterday I started at 7K, then dropped to 6.6K and eventually climbed back up to 7K.
Quite a gap, but I haven't played that many games yet so I can understand this.

However, their good rating system can only function properly if they implement some kind of matching system.
Both on Iso and on Goko I always tried to play the highest ranked person I could find. That's more fun and as a bonus it's better for my rating.
When I play against someone approximately 300 points below me, I'm supposed to win something between 55% and 60% to maintain rating.
When I play against someone about 2000 points below me, I need to win about 80%.

Although both are doable, there's no fun in the second. I used the word 'need' on purpose, and I don't like what it does to me. I either 'do what I'm supposed to do' or 'I lose'.
And... I can't imagine there's much fun for the other player either.

Well, the rating only exists so that you might find players of equal skill. Playing someone of equal skill is fun if you can sometimes still learn something or have a real nail biter where small details matter a lot.

But with Dominion, there's so much randomness that when you're playing someone of comparable skill the game is most likely decided on shuffle luck instead of keen tactics. If you play a chess match against someone rated 100 points below you on the ELO system, say you're 1700 playing a 1600, you could win close to 100% of the games, simply because you know everything the 1600 knows and a bit more.

The rating system on Goko uses 4 significant digits and a ladder, corrupting the system in my view. If you create a ladder, you're making players play just for their rating instead of the fun the game offers. I think it's wrong that people should be worried about dropping any levels on a ladder over such a simple game. A ladder makes people scared of losing and stops innovation.

What I would have liked to see is just one significant digit or even one half and no ladder. Rate the players 1-5 stars or something. This way you can use the rating the way it was intended: To find players of similar skill.

The way the ladder affects you is in fact a choice, and I don't agree with it.
I'm not scared to try something new at all. Sometimes it makes me lose and that's ok. Usually my opponent is happy enough for the both of us.
Trying out new things or combo's I haven't seen before is the main reason I like playing this game.
Besides: if I lose a game I could have won, then my rating is temporarily a little bit lower then it's supposed to be. Future games will automatically compensate.
The only way my rating goes up in the long run is if I get better.

Although I like being on top of the leaderboard, I apparently care less about rating then you do. Yes, there is a lot of randomness in Dominion. However, there also are a lot of decisions. And those decisions have a huge impact on your chances. I see a lot of people blaming their bad luck where in fact they just played poorly. When I lose a game of Dominion, I almost always can find a point where I made a bad decision myself. And when I can't, I'm just not smart enough. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm yet to play a game of Dominion where I don't make any mistakes. This game is a lot more complicated then most people seem to realize.

Blaming your bad luck after the game kills your learning process.
Blaming your bad luck during the game stops you from 'making the best of you bad position'.
Blaming your bad luck in the chat isn't any fun for your opponent.
Really, there's barely ever any point in whining about bad luck.

...unless there is a need to save your own ego, which is both understandable and human.
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2013, 03:47:06 pm »
+1

As mentioned above, I'm still quite new to the Goko System and their ratings.
My first impression of the rating system is that it's actually quite good. Swingy, but good.
Yesterday I started at 7K, then dropped to 6.6K and eventually climbed back up to 7K.
Quite a gap, but I haven't played that many games yet so I can understand this.

However, their good rating system can only function properly if they implement some kind of matching system.
Both on Iso and on Goko I always tried to play the highest ranked person I could find. That's more fun and as a bonus it's better for my rating.
When I play against someone approximately 300 points below me, I'm supposed to win something between 55% and 60% to maintain rating.
When I play against someone about 2000 points below me, I need to win about 80%.

Although both are doable, there's no fun in the second. I used the word 'need' on purpose, and I don't like what it does to me. I either 'do what I'm supposed to do' or 'I lose'.
And... I can't imagine there's much fun for the other player either.

Well, the rating only exists so that you might find players of equal skill. Playing someone of equal skill is fun if you can sometimes still learn something or have a real nail biter where small details matter a lot.

But with Dominion, there's so much randomness that when you're playing someone of comparable skill the game is most likely decided on shuffle luck instead of keen tactics. If you play a chess match against someone rated 100 points below you on the ELO system, say you're 1700 playing a 1600, you could win close to 100% of the games, simply because you know everything the 1600 knows and a bit more.

The rating system on Goko uses 4 significant digits and a ladder, corrupting the system in my view. If you create a ladder, you're making players play just for their rating instead of the fun the game offers. I think it's wrong that people should be worried about dropping any levels on a ladder over such a simple game. A ladder makes people scared of losing and stops innovation.

What I would have liked to see is just one significant digit or even one half and no ladder. Rate the players 1-5 stars or something. This way you can use the rating the way it was intended: To find players of similar skill.

The way the ladder affects you is in fact a choice, and I don't agree with it.
I'm not scared to try something new at all. Sometimes it makes me lose and that's ok. Usually my opponent is happy enough for the both of us.
Trying out new things or combo's I haven't seen before is the main reason I like playing this game.
Besides: if I lose a game I could have won, then my rating is temporarily a little bit lower then it's supposed to be. Future games will automatically compensate.
The only way my rating goes up in the long run is if I get better.

Although I like being on top of the leaderboard, I apparently care less about rating then you do. Yes, there is a lot of randomness in Dominion. However, there also are a lot of decisions. And those decisions have a huge impact on your chances. I see a lot of people blaming their bad luck where in fact they just played poorly. When I lose a game of Dominion, I almost always can find a point where I made a bad decision myself. And when I can't, I'm just not smart enough. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm yet to play a game of Dominion where I don't make any mistakes. This game is a lot more complicated then most people seem to realize.

Blaming your bad luck after the game kills your learning process.
Blaming your bad luck during the game stops you from 'making the best of you bad position'.
Blaming your bad luck in the chat isn't any fun for your opponent.
Really, there's barely ever any point in whining about bad luck.

...unless there is a need to save your own ego, which is both understandable and human.

I love this post. I especially agree about the whole blaming bad luck aspect. It sometimes happen such as the boards where my opponent gets a 5/2 Dame Anna on a cursing board with no other trasher, but you make a great point.

Also, I think you are right, the biggest culprit of the ratings is a lack of good matchmaking.
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2013, 12:12:24 am »
+1

I was 40+ on Iso and accepted matches against any registered player. I didn't want to be elitist and restrict myself just to get higher ratings.
I don't think you are being an elitist by requesting to play players higher than a certain score or rank. Although, I do understand and respect where you are coming from, it can be really annoying to play a newbie who might not know some of the cards on the board and then hear them complain or say "well I didn't really understand those cards, I've never played with them before".  A person should know when they are playing a player with a high rank that maybe some of the cards will be foreign to them. Also, the pro rating drop from losing to lower ranked players is frustrating too.
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Ratsia

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2013, 02:31:30 am »
+1

One issue with all the 4000+/5000+ demands is that they make the start of one's Goko career quite tricky. Especially now that the bot rankings seem to be dropping (for whatever reason) to low 3000s, it is actually non-trivial even for fairly good players to reach sufficient pro rating. The only options are beating the bots very consistently or getting lucky with finding some middle-ranked opponents willing to play pro games but not insisting on high rank.

I should be good enough opponent for most (was consistently around lvl 30 or so in iso), but after a couple of attempts to find decent opponents without highly restrictive rating gaps I simply gave up. Of course the blame is on Goko for not having proper matchmaking, but the way people "solve" the problem is definitely not helping newbies who would not satisfy any of the properties the good players are trying to avoid; I would not play more slowly, I would not quit, I would be just as chatty, and I should be able to offer interesting enough opposition. I still understand them as I would probably do the same, but I wanted to provide this alternative viewpoint anyway.
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Davio

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2013, 03:07:36 am »
+1

I was 40+ on Iso and accepted matches against any registered player. I didn't want to be elitist and restrict myself just to get higher ratings.
I don't think you are being an elitist by requesting to play players higher than a certain score or rank. Although, I do understand and respect where you are coming from, it can be really annoying to play a newbie who might not know some of the cards on the board and then hear them complain or say "well I didn't really understand those cards, I've never played with them before".  A person should know when they are playing a player with a high rank that maybe some of the cards will be foreign to them. Also, the pro rating drop from losing to lower ranked players is frustrating too.
I think my most fun matches have been with inexperienced players, because they didn't mind losing and wanted to learn what they did wrong. Heck, and of course they even won some of the matches.
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lespeutere

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2013, 03:16:23 am »
0

One issue with all the 4000+/5000+ demands is that they make the start of one's Goko career quite tricky. Especially now that the bot rankings seem to be dropping (for whatever reason) to low 3000s, it is actually non-trivial even for fairly good players to reach sufficient pro rating. The only options are beating the bots very consistently or getting lucky with finding some middle-ranked opponents willing to play pro games but not insisting on high rank.

I should be good enough opponent for most (was consistently around lvl 30 or so in iso), but after a couple of attempts to find decent opponents without highly restrictive rating gaps I simply gave up. Of course the blame is on Goko for not having proper matchmaking, but the way people "solve" the problem is definitely not helping newbies who would not satisfy any of the properties the good players are trying to avoid; I would not play more slowly, I would not quit, I would be just as chatty, and I should be able to offer interesting enough opposition. I still understand them as I would probably do the same, but I wanted to provide this alternative viewpoint anyway.
This is certainly a considerable viewpoint. However, even with bots at 3500 (banker bot right now), it's not such a big problem to get to 4000. And there you are. If you own cards and host games, you'll certainly get some 5000+ players to play with you then. All those guys in the top x00 of the leaderboard have somehow got there - and it hasn't been any magic involved.
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hsiale

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2013, 03:29:15 am »
0

One issue with all the 4000+/5000+ demands is that they make the start of one's Goko career quite tricky. Especially now that the bot rankings seem to be dropping (for whatever reason) to low 3000s, it is actually non-trivial even for fairly good players to reach sufficient pro rating.
The moment I write this Banker Bot has 4190 pro rating, Lord Bottington has 4029, Defender Bot has 4254. As long as someone wins more often than not against them, it should be easy to get your rating over 4500. And with this rating (at least when you have the cards, no idea how much does this change if you don't) it is very easy to find opponents (my rating is usually 4500-4700, I play with 3500+ and almost never have to wait more than one minute for a game).

If things are way worse when you have no cards, I guess this is more due to overall shortage of people with cards at Goko.
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Ratsia

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2013, 04:22:29 am »
+1

This is certainly a considerable viewpoint. However, even with bots at 3500 (banker bot right now), it's not such a big problem to get to 4000.
It's not terribly hard, but still a threshold. In particular, it requires doing something that many might consider boring. Furthermore, an infrequent medium-level player (maybe someone who would sit around 4500-5000 if playing a lot) needs to do it again every time they decide to play, due to the fairly heavy rating drops due to inactivity -- at least my rating that I once pumped to 4000+ had dropped to something like 3200 when I came back after some weeks. Someone who only wants to play for an hour or so every Sunday might easily find the first 20 minutes of that time spent honing their rating against the bots just to look credible...

Hosting games with all sets naturally helps, but given the current pricing model the game is supposed to be kind of playable also without that. I'll buy all of them if the remaining major issues (matchmaking being the most critical one) are fixed, but not being able to enjoy (very) casual play easily before that is making it less likely for me to reach the point where I'm happy enough with their product.
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2013, 04:26:44 am »
0

I have never played a pro game against bots, and got over 4000 before I bought any cards just by joining games in the lobby (more of which than I would have liked were base only).

Other people have mentioned this here or elsewhere: if I'm hosting games with a minimum rating and I recognise you from here then I'll accept whatever your rating.  (This naturally leads to embarrassment if I don't recognise somebody. :) )
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Ratsia

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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 04:28:20 am »
0

The moment I write this Banker Bot has 4190 pro rating, Lord Bottington has 4029, Defender Bot has 4254.
Okay, so they are simply extremely swingy. Yesterday none of them was above 3500 or so.

Edit: Not so swingy after all. It seems I was looking at the bot's casual ratings, due to the ridiculous interface. When you create a pro game and click "Add bot", it shows the list of bots with their casual rankings... This makes absolutely no sense, so I never even thought it could be showing something else than the pro rating. Indeed the bots are close to 4000, it's just their casual rating that is below 3500.


I guess one struggle for people with no cards is also that the bots are stronger on Base than they would be with all cards (for various reasons; simpler cards, BM being often close to optimal, probably more development spent on optimizing the bots for that set). Hence, their rating is actually lower than their true skill is when playing with Base only, assuming some people with other sets still play against them every now and then (no idea if anyone does).

(Related to the point of recognizing people from here or iso: At least I have a different name in Goko due to having registered with Google+ during the beta. Is it still impossible to change the name?)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 04:33:10 am by Ratsia »
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 04:37:14 am »
0

(Related to the point of recognizing people from here or iso: At least I have a different name in Goko due to having registered with Google+ during the beta. Is it still impossible to change the name?)

Don't know, but you can put your goko name in your forum profile...
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Re: Why do people demand 4000+/5000+?
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2013, 04:56:20 am »
0

It's possible to change the name and I think it has been for a long time, but I can't for the life of me remember how, you have to click on your name on the main screen or on the goko page or something. I remember never being able to find it, that gets asked once every few weeks on getsatisfaction.
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