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Author Topic: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion  (Read 598686 times)

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Polk5440

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #950 on: March 25, 2014, 08:31:59 am »
0

Thanks, AI! That makes sense.

I basically use the generator in two ways: exact kingdoms and random among a few sets (e.g. Base Set + Intrigue + Prosperity). So, if I wanted a certain number of cards from each, I would say something like "5 Prosperity, 2 Base Set, 3 Intrigue"?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #951 on: March 25, 2014, 08:51:02 am »
+1

Thanks, AI! That makes sense.

I basically use the generator in two ways: exact kingdoms and random among a few sets (e.g. Base Set + Intrigue + Prosperity). So, if I wanted a certain number of cards from each, I would say something like "5 Prosperity, 2 Base Set, 3 Intrigue"?

Exactly.  Without going overboard this time...

"3 Intrigue" translates to "Intrigue, Intrigue, Intrigue" meaning three different cards from one set.  So your entry does just what you expect it to.

But don't expect the same result from "3 * Intrigue".  That'll pick just one card, but it'll pick it from a tripled set... as if you'd mixed together three copies of each Intrigue card and drawn one at random.

The only use for that operation is something like "3 * Guilds + Intrigue", which will draw cards from each expansion with roughly equal probability, since Intrigue is roughly times as big as Guilds.
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

dnkywin

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #952 on: March 25, 2014, 09:14:09 am »
0

I couldn't find whether this was addressed before, but is there a way to filter people based on Isotropish level? (Something like L30+ instead of 5000+)
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ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #953 on: March 25, 2014, 10:10:02 am »
+1

I couldn't find whether this was addressed before, but is there a way to filter people based on Isotropish level? (Something like L30+ instead of 5000+)

Not yet, but probably soon.
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

hsiale

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #954 on: March 25, 2014, 10:58:48 am »
+4

I couldn't find whether this was addressed before, but is there a way to filter people based on Isotropish level? (Something like L30+ instead of 5000+)

Not yet, but probably soon.
For me this gets dangerously close to forcing people not using external tools to start doing this. Someone who doesn't use Salvager and doesn't visit gokosalvager.com cannot even check his Isotropish level. Goko Pro level can be easily checked from within the client.
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soulnet

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #955 on: March 25, 2014, 11:05:38 am »
+1

For me this gets dangerously close to forcing people not using external tools to start doing this. Someone who doesn't use Salvager and doesn't visit gokosalvager.com cannot even check his Isotropish level. Goko Pro level can be easily checked from within the client.

OTOH is something you could do manually, only that it would take a lot of time and make the eventually kicked opponent wait longer. If it can be done manually, I think it is fair to automate it.

EDIT: VP counter discussion in 3, 2, 1, ...
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #956 on: March 25, 2014, 11:06:17 am »
+1

Not sure if it's a Salvager problem but every time I join a lobby the list of players seems to scroll really fast until they all disappear.
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soulnet

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #957 on: March 25, 2014, 11:20:57 am »
+5

Not sure if it's a Salvager problem but every time I join a lobby the list of players seems to scroll really fast until they all disappear.

Same thing happened to me in elementary school... don't worry, later on your classmates are going to be all nerds like you and everything will be ok.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #958 on: March 25, 2014, 11:31:35 am »
+1

Not sure if it's a Salvager problem but every time I join a lobby the list of players seems to scroll really fast until they all disappear.

It's a bug I introduced in v2.5.1.1 and fixed in v2.5.1.2.  Check your version and upgrade if necessary.
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

AndrewisFTTW

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #959 on: March 25, 2014, 11:40:24 am »
0

Not sure if it's a Salvager problem but every time I join a lobby the list of players seems to scroll really fast until they all disappear.

It's a bug I introduced in v2.5.1.1 and fixed in v2.5.1.2.  Check your version and upgrade if necessary.

Word. Thanks!

Not sure if it's a Salvager problem but every time I join a lobby the list of players seems to scroll really fast until they all disappear.

Same thing happened to me in elementary school... don't worry, later on your classmates are going to be all nerds like you and everything will be ok.

You're wrong. Nobody likes me.  :'(
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:41:26 am by AndrewisFTTW »
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Losses: M40, M43, M45, BM17 (?), RMM13, RMM17, RMM20, NM7, ZM18, M100, M109
MVPs: M97
Mod/Co-Mod: M46, M49, M52, NM10

ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #960 on: March 25, 2014, 11:55:19 am »
+10

I couldn't find whether this was addressed before, but is there a way to filter people based on Isotropish level? (Something like L30+ instead of 5000+)

Not yet, but probably soon.
For me this gets dangerously close to forcing people not using external tools to start doing this. Someone who doesn't use Salvager and doesn't visit gokosalvager.com cannot even check his Isotropish level. Goko Pro level can be easily checked from within the client.

Ok, gonna rant here.  And I'm only speaking for myself, not for michaeljb or the other contributors to Salvager:

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the troglodytes who still don't use the extension.  The extension works pretty hard a little bit at being friendly to them, with features like #vp?, auto-automatch, and auto-kick explanation messages (currently beta).  But there are limits to how much I'll deny to people who use my software for the benefit of those who don't.

If I implement kick-by-iso, the auto-kick messages will refer people to isotropish.com. Isotropish ratings change far slower than Goko ratings, so it's not like they'd have to be constantly checking either.

Personally, I really want this feature because seeing Pro and Isotropish ratings side by side keeps reminding me of what a joke Goko's Pro system is.  I really hate putting in 5000+ and getting a level 20 opponent.  That's just not going to be a fun game.  But do I kick the guy?  It seems like a dick move, since he satisfies the criterion I listed.

For mid- and low-range players, the problem is far, far worse.  Just look at this godawful mess:



Majacian is thinking he's a little better than (V)_*,,,*_(V) because he's got a higher Pro rating.  (V)_*,,,*_(V) is probably getting kicked from some games that Majacian can enter.  Meanwhile, (V)_*,,,*_(V) is actually 32 levels higher than Majacian.  That's like Banker Bot thinking it's a little better than Stef.

The problem gets worse the lower you go because Goko's worst tweaks to TrueSkill have their largest effect on low-rated players.  (Edit: this explanation is too facile.  Better analysis coming soon, hopefully.)  But even near the top, the volatility is a huge problem.  I briefly overtook SCSN on Goko Pro after a lucky run yesterday... Isotropish still had him as several levels above me, where he belongs.

And before you ask, yes, Isotropish is right and Goko Pro is wrong.  Absolutely no doubt.  Someone else can collect the data and analyze the win prediction accuracy of both systems... I'm not even going to bother.

I also agree with soulnet that it's really the user's choice.  If you think it's rude, don't use it.  Call me an arms dealer if you must... I'm big on personal liberty.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 01:33:49 am by ragingduckd »
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

soulnet

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #961 on: March 25, 2014, 12:12:52 pm »
+1

I also agree with soulnet that it's really the user's choice.  If you think it's rude, don't use it.  Call me an arms dealer if you must... I'm big on personal liberty.

Wow! I do not think that dealing arms is ok. And I don't think this is the same at all, so calling you an arm dealer would be totally out of line (unless you are also an arm dealer on the side and this was your sneaky way to letting us know without exposing yourself too much).

When you sell an arm (or tons) you are openning new killing possibilities, so you are to some extent responsible to what happens. With kick-by-iso on Salvager you are not opening new kicking possibilities, you are just automating possibilities that already exist*. I think it is even better than that: by changing the title of the game and providing explanatory messages, you are telling people why they are kicked, which will probably not happen if you kick them manually after checking their levels (unless you also take the trouble of letting them know manually, which will probably not happen).

*this is not entirely accurate, since automating killing that was already possible is also a bad thing, but the change in scale and importance does make a huge difference. I will stop this here, before getting too deep into RSP.
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hsiale

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #962 on: March 25, 2014, 12:21:46 pm »
0

And before you ask, yes, Isotropish is right and Goko Pro is wrong.  Absolutely no doubt.
Thanks for the link, this explained a lot. Still, after reading this, I have no idea why Goko (slightly, not as much as most extreme cases, but systematically) overestimates me. Recently I play almost daily, never play guests, never play 3+ players, never play people ranked very low and still I am usually ranked 230+/-50 on Goko Pro (depending on in I have a good or bad day), while I don't think I have ever been Isotropish top 300.
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Awaclus

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #963 on: March 25, 2014, 12:43:53 pm »
+4

Recently I play almost daily
That might be it. There are others who don't, and are taking up some of the higher slots on the Isotropish leaderboard but not on the Goko Pro leaderboard.
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Polk5440

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #964 on: March 25, 2014, 01:18:11 pm »
+2

AI, I strongly suggest you rename Isotropish to TrueSkill based on those comments. 

Most of those features apply to Isotropic and Goko. Some of those features were requested during the beta, IIRC.

Oh, the memories. My biggest frustrations with Iso were veto mode counting toward the ranking and being able to reject ranked games after being auto-matched and seeing the kingdom.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #965 on: March 25, 2014, 01:28:04 pm »
0

AI, I strongly suggest you rename Isotropish to TrueSkill based on those comments. 

It's a pretty good idea, actually.  Honestly, there's not much that's really like Isotropic except the TS parameters.  It doesn't have the uncertainty rising daily.

Quote
Most of those features apply to Isotropic and Goko. Some of those features were requested during the beta, IIRC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?  What features?
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #966 on: March 25, 2014, 01:43:06 pm »
0

Wow! I do not think that dealing arms is ok.

Oh, I totally misread you there.  Um... so just ignore the PM from me, okay?
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Polk5440

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #967 on: March 25, 2014, 02:01:02 pm »
+2

Quote
Most of those features apply to Isotropic and Goko. Some of those features were requested during the beta, IIRC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?  What features?

The bullet points on why you don't like Goko Pro rating.

Shared feature: rating decline due to inactivity. There was discussion pre- and post- beta about the speed of the ratings decline/uncertainty increases for inactivity. This was adjusted a few times. Several people (including me) asked them on the forum(s) at various times to increase it to prevent camping on the leaderboard.

Shared "feature": min level of 0. There was discussion about the 0 min level, as well. Some people really dislike negative numbers. I am under the impression they store the actual negative rating for calculations and just display 0 (like Isotropic did). Maybe they've changed it or I am wrong about that.

Shared "feature": different types of games contribute to the same ranking (multiplayer, veto mode).

I am trying to remember if hiding the pro kingdoms was implemented from the beginning or was changed during beta. I think it was there from the get-go.
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Awaclus

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #968 on: March 25, 2014, 02:09:32 pm »
0

Shared "feature": min level of 0. There was discussion about the 0 min level, as well. Some people really dislike negative numbers. I am under the impression they store the actual negative rating for calculations and just display 0 (like Isotropic did). Maybe they've changed it or I am wrong about that.
Though, Isotropic did display the assumed rating ± the uncertainty on the leaderboard, so if you wanted to find out someone's actual rating, it was possible.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #969 on: March 25, 2014, 02:40:43 pm »
+6

Quote
Most of those features apply to Isotropic and Goko. Some of those features were requested during the beta, IIRC.

Can you clarify what you mean by this?  What features?

The bullet points on why you don't like Goko Pro rating.

Shared feature: rating decline due to inactivity. There was discussion pre- and post- beta about the speed of the ratings decline/uncertainty increases for inactivity. This was adjusted a few times. Several people (including me) asked them on the forum(s) at various times to increase it to prevent camping on the leaderboard.

Shared "feature": min level of 0. There was discussion about the 0 min level, as well. Some people really dislike negative numbers. I am under the impression they store the actual negative rating for calculations and just display 0 (like Isotropic did). Maybe they've changed it or I am wrong about that.

Shared "feature": different types of games contribute to the same ranking (multiplayer, veto mode).

I am trying to remember if hiding the pro kingdoms was implemented from the beginning or was changed during beta. I think it was there from the get-go.

Oh wow.  I arrived too late for Isotropic, so I missed all this.  My thoughts:

Inactivity Decline - camping isn't a problem at the moment for Isotropish.  All the top 20 were active in the last 4 days, except for "awall" who was active two weeks ago.

Zero Limits - Goko actually uses zero for the data as well as the displayed value.  Like right now my casual rating is displayed as zero (I resign to bots constantly when testing), but if I query the raw data, it gives me {mean: 0, SD: 298}.  So even though my history says I should be -4000 or something, Goko is going to award points to my next opponent as though I was rated zero.  This randomizing bias propagates throughout the leaderboard, having little effect on the top but really screwing up the bottom. Edit: No it doesn't.  It would, but there aren't actually any Pro players so bad that they have mu=0.

Clarification:  If only the displayed rating (mu-2*sigma) would drop below zero, Goko's tweak is purely cosmetic: it displays your rating as 0, even though mu-2*sigma is negative, but it continues doing post-game rating updates using your actual mu and sigma.  It's only when your mean (mu) would fall below zero that Goko actually modifies the updating rule.

Multiplayer Games - I'd consider making a separate leaderboard(s) for 3+ player games, but I certainly won't ever include them in the main leaderboard.

Veto-mode Games - I'm not convinced that the "3-card veto" system that's been under discussion recently would really damage the leaderboard's accuracy.  Regular veto mode is clearly a very different thing though.  If that ever gets implemented, I wouldn't want it in the same leaderboard as normal games.

Seeing kingdoms in advance and being able to cancel the game without penalty is just crazy talk.  Games where that was possible could only be considered for a special "Dominion for Cheaters" leaderboard.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 05:01:37 pm by ragingduckd »
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

sudgy

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #970 on: March 25, 2014, 02:53:00 pm »
0

I would want an autokick by isotropish rating, because my pro rating is a lot lower than it should.  I only play online once every few weeks or so, and my pro rating is around 4500 while my isotropish rating is around 30.
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Polk5440

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #971 on: March 25, 2014, 03:18:10 pm »
+1

Zero Limits - Goko actually uses zero for the data as well as the displayed value.  Like right now my casual rating is displayed as zero (I resign to bots constantly when testing), but if I query the raw data, it gives me {mean: 0, SD: 298}.  So even though my history says I should be -4000 or something, Goko is going to award points to my next opponent as though I was rated zero.  This randomizing bias propagates throughout the leaderboard, having little effect on the top but really screwing up the bottom.

Yeesh. That's bad.

Quote
Multiplayer Games - I'd consider making a separate leaderboard(s) for 3+ player games, but I certainly won't ever include them in the main leaderboard.

Veto-mode Games - I'm not convinced that the "3-card veto" system that's been under discussion recently would really damage the leaderboard's accuracy.  Regular veto mode is clearly a very different thing though.  If that ever gets implemented, I wouldn't want it in the same leaderboard as normal games.

Seeing kingdoms in advance and being able to cancel the game without penalty is just crazy talk.  Games where that was possible could only be considered for a special "Dominion for Cheaters" leaderboard.

Multiple leaderboards and mandatory hidden games for pro was one of the reasons I was so excited about the move from Iso to Goko at the start. Sadly, my high hopes have not been fully realized.

If you are interested, here's a classic discussion that was forked from Obi's intro thread. What a welcome. I had forgotten that on Iso you could "bias" which cards were in the kingdom.
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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #972 on: March 25, 2014, 03:24:14 pm »
0

I had forgotten that on Iso you could "bias" which cards were in the kingdom.

I remember that. When I played I'd usually bias my first game toward Base Set, my second game toward Intrigue, etc. That was fun, but I don't really miss it.
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Narz

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #973 on: March 25, 2014, 10:47:11 pm »
0

Thanks again!

By the way, I'm not noticing any discrepancies between Goko & Iso ratings.  In fact the list by Pro & Goko rating would be the exact same order (at least in the lobby I'm in).

My rating is nearly what it was on Iso (21), going to try to break 25. ;D
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Narz

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Re: Goko Dominion Salvager Discussion
« Reply #974 on: March 25, 2014, 10:49:21 pm »
0

Ok, now there are some low 4000's higher than me.  :(
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