Topic: Is border village a trap? (Read 14063 times)

ehunt · « **on:** October 16, 2011, 03:44:29 pm »

Two banal observations:

1. Times one certainly buys border village: there's a card that costs less than 6 which you would prefer to gold if border village weren't on the board. Example: late game duchy, minion (often), wharf (often). Barring unusual circumstances (e.g. fear of emptying a pile), you'll always buy border village in these cases.

2. Times one certainly doesn't buy border village: there's no card on the board costing 5 or less such that you prefer (that card + village) to gold.

These are obvious.

The "trap" I'm referring to is for "in between" fives: cards you'd never consider taking over a gold, but might consider taking if they come with a free village. I've lost about a billion games within the span of the last day just by failing to compute which cards are worth picking up over gold (with a free village) and which aren't.

Any rules of thumb? My limited games so far suggest that in essentially all of these borderline cases, the free village isn't worth it, i.e., you shouldn't buy border village unless you're in case 1 above (buying something you'd already take over gold.)

Anyone want to argue a counterexample? This is a card that costs under 5, which you typically wouldn't buy over gold, but that you would buy over gold if it came with a free village.

DG · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:43:35 pm »

The border village is the new fishing village?

ChaosRed · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2011, 05:46:26 pm »

I like it most for the late-game Dutchy grab, as I feel the village powers buffer me (somewhat) from gaining an additional Victory card. Border Village enables a Gardens deck nicely I feel, but I generally never look at any 6-cost action until I have at least two (maybe three) Gold already acquired. Minion is a card Border Village might prompt me to buy, even though I have no gold. As I feel Border Village and Minion blend fairly well.

chwhite · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:00:54 pm »

I might take Gold over Rabble, but Border Village + Rabble over Gold.

jonts26 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:07:33 pm »

Quote from: ChaosRed on October 16, 2011, 05:46:26 pm

I like it most for the late-game Dutchy grab, as I feel the village powers buffer me (somewhat) from gaining an additional Victory card. Border Village enables a Gardens deck nicely I feel, but I generally never look at any 6-cost action until I have at least two (maybe three) Gold already acquired. Minion is a card Border Village might prompt me to buy, even though I have no gold. As I feel Border Village and Minion blend fairly well.

Border village, like vanilla village, does nothing to buffer you against victory cards. If you ever have a hand where you don't use the extra action, it is essentially a nothing card. You draw the village instead of the card you would have drawn anyway.

As far as the OP is concerned, border village is worht taking over a gold when you'd like to have a complicated engine going, but the opportunity cost of getting the villages to run it is too high. I would imagine something like any variant on village/smithy would work. And I do agree with ChaosRed, it works wonderfully with minion. I don't always want to run a minion engine, but with border village and any halfway decent supporting terminal, I'd take border village over gold.

biopower · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:14:59 pm »

What comes to mind as the best counterexamples to ehunt's statement are the cheap trash for benefit cards like Remodel and Salvager (and Remake and Upgrade if there are good $7 cards). Remodel gives you a province directly, and Salvager gives you $6, which is likely a province. Remake is more situational, but Upgrades are great simply because you can Upgrade an Upgrade into another Border Village or a Gold. I could also see people getting it for Bridges instead of Golds if spamming bridges were viable (i.e. there's a decent source of draw). Alternatively, with Forge on the table grabbing $2 cards to forge into provinces might be viable.

Saucery · « **Reply #6 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:37:27 pm »

The new village idiot is the guy buying these and gaining non-terminals all day (Except if they're using trash for benefit cards)

I've already seen it spammed on festivals and labs

rrenaud · « **Reply #7 on:** October 16, 2011, 07:15:50 pm »

It seems like people are doing pretty well with it.

http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=Border%20Village%2CGold
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Gold%2CBorder%20Village

ehunt · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2011, 09:22:04 pm »

That's devastating data to my central thesis, especially since you would expect there to be an error toward buying border village too often in the first few days after the release of the card.

DG · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2011, 09:48:10 pm »

It should be a good card. There are a lot of games where the border village is entirely an improvement on how you'd play without it, given that you'd buy a 5 cost card ahead of gold anyway. I played a fun 3 player scrying pool game earlier and there was no way anyone was going to buy a gold instead of a border village+festival (or harvest).

def · « **Reply #10 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:38:58 am »

I had a nice game yesterday where I bought many border villages to gain council rooms and militia was available, too. Still, I almost lost to fool's gold (which was somehow countered and supported by my strategy), so you have to be careful when going for obvious, great looking combos.

That said, don't be fooled. When you'd normally buy a gold over a 5$-card with 6$, you shouldn't go for border village plus that 5 unless it's for a game-winning engine.

Davio · « **Reply #11 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:48:46 am »

Quote from: def on October 17, 2011, 06:38:58 am

I had a nice game yesterday where I bought many border villages to gain council rooms and militia was available, too. Still, I almost lost to fool's gold (which was somehow countered and supported by my strategy), so you have to be careful when going for obvious, great looking combos.

That said, don't be fooled. When you'd normally buy a gold over a 5$-card with 6$, you shouldn't go for border village plus that 5 unless it's for a game-winning engine.

Well, your Council Rooms may have inadvertently triggered some of your opponent's FG line-ups...

Kuildeous · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2011, 10:43:04 am »

I could see BV being a great pick with Quarry in play. This means you can buy it with only $4, so you are spared the dilemma of choosing between BV and Gold.

Just don't make a mistake and play three Quarries and then buy a Border Village. I've never seen it happen, but I'm sure it'd be hilarious.

Davio · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2011, 11:01:31 am »

Quote from: Kuildeous on October 17, 2011, 10:43:04 am

I could see BV being a great pick with Quarry in play. This means you can buy it with only $4, so you are spared the dilemma of choosing between BV and Gold.

Just don't make a mistake and play three Quarries and then buy a Border Village. I've never seen it happen, but I'm sure it'd be hilarious.

But if you buy BV for $4, you can only gain another card costing up to $3 or an action card that cost $5 originally. => No Duchy for instance. $:-\$

Thisisnotasmile · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2011, 11:03:51 am »

Quote from: Davio on October 17, 2011, 11:01:31 am

Quote from: Kuildeous on October 17, 2011, 10:43:04 am
I could see BV being a great pick with Quarry in play. This means you can buy it with only $4, so you are spared the dilemma of choosing between BV and Gold.

Just don't make a mistake and play three Quarries and then buy a Border Village. I've never seen it happen, but I'm sure it'd be hilarious.
But if you buy BV for $4, you can only gain another card costing up to $3. $:-\$

As long as you already intended to gain an Action card with it, that's not a problem as they all cost $2 less anyway. If you want a Duchy or another Quarry or something with it, then yeah, it doesn't work.

Edit: Aaaaaaaaaaaand you edited as I posted...

Kuildeous · « **Reply #15 on:** October 17, 2011, 11:25:09 am »

Quote from: Davio on October 17, 2011, 11:01:31 am

But if you buy BV for $4, you can only gain another card costing up to $3 or an action card that cost $5 originally. => No Duchy for instance. $:-\$

Sorry, I meant that as implied, but I shouldn't have assumed that. I was thinking more for the early game when you have to choose between a Gold or a Border Village + $5 card. If you have Quarry in your deck, then your decisions are easier.

Though you both raise good points that you don't want to play Quarry in the late game if you plan on gaining Border Village + Duchy. Also hilarious.

chwhite · « **Reply #16 on:** October 17, 2011, 01:18:41 pm »

Border Village isn't a trap, it's A-1 awesomesauce.

Fool's Gold, Mandarin, Trader, Nomad Camp, and possibly even Crossroads are all traps, though. (Haven't played with the other two yet, but I bet they're both a little trappy.)

philosophyguy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:18:55 pm »

Crossroads isn't a trap if there are more Victory-type cards in play (especially Great Halls, but Nobles and Harems work well too; haven't tried with Gardens yet). It's actually very effective—for $2 you get a decent engine card.

Trader is very useful in Ambassador games. You can either explode extra Estates into pairs of Silvers or make it so your opponent is sending you Silver. I think this might be the first card to make Ambassador not a must-buy opener.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #18 on:** October 17, 2011, 06:34:52 pm »

I think on a lot of boards Border Village isn't a trap. The biggest trap card I think (so far) is Traders, although I love the card.

Kirian · « **Reply #19 on:** October 17, 2011, 08:25:03 pm »

Insert <admiral-ackbar.jpg>

chwhite · « **Reply #20 on:** October 17, 2011, 08:32:28 pm »

I love the title of Fool's Gold BTW.

It's straight up telling you THIS CARD IS A TRAP. And people buy it anyway! (Admittedly it can sometimes be a good buy. But sure seems like it's usually a trap.)

ImperialStout · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2011, 10:09:35 pm »

It is frequently advantageous to buy Border Villages over Gold when:

-- You are going to most likely remodel, farmlands or expand the BV into a Province/Platinum. The extra 5$ card is effectively free in this scenario.

-- You are going for a quick 3 stack win. Exhaust the BV stack and another stack simultaneously.

-- Conspirators and peddlers.

Stoc · « **Reply #22 on:** November 03, 2011, 11:42:31 am »

I got devastated by Border Village / Rabble in a game with no +buy. I thought my opponent was way over building their deck, but once my deck started to green it completely shut me down allowing him a huge comeback window.

Davio · « **Reply #23 on:** November 03, 2011, 11:54:59 am »

Quote from: Kirian on October 17, 2011, 08:25:03 pm

Insert <admiral-ackbar.jpg>

Hehe, I can never read or hear someone saying this without thinking about it.

That's what memes do to you.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #24 on:** November 03, 2011, 01:22:50 pm »

Border Village + Wharf killed me last night.

I was dorking around with just Wharf and Tournament, I landed the Trust Steed, but it was way to late. He murdered me. Actually Tournament is a card I've NEVER won with. NEVER. Weird huh? Buying it too early I guess, or simply not reading the board right when its there.

painted_cow · « **Reply #25 on:** November 03, 2011, 03:04:02 pm »

I mean how can Border Village be a trap??? Its such a great card, that gives me the good 5s and a village. When I have 6 cash I will go for the good 5 card anyway and get a Village for free. Allowing some 3-pile-endings is just the icing on the cake :-)

Davio · « **Reply #26 on:** November 03, 2011, 05:00:32 pm »

Quote from: ChaosRed on November 03, 2011, 01:22:50 pm

Border Village + Wharf killed me last night.

I was dorking around with just Wharf and Tournament, I landed the Trust Steed, but it was way to late. He murdered me. Actually Tournament is a card I've NEVER won with. NEVER. Weird huh? Buying it too early I guess, or simply not reading the board right when its there.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of grabbing the Trusty Steed automatically, also in cases when any of the other cards is better. And then they use it for +2 Cards / +2 Actions and draw some crap and have no more Action cards...

Border Village can easily be a trap, because you're forgoing Gold. This can be good for critical early $5's like Mountebank, but later in the game and close to a reshuffle there are a lot of times you're better off taking the Gold.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #27 on:** November 03, 2011, 05:23:38 pm »

As an aside, I think its that Tournament is a curse for me. I bought Tournament before my opponent, right after I bought a Province (which I bought before him). I had 3 Provinces in my hand fairly early, do you think I could get Tournament and Province together? Nope, not even with a Village+Smithy in my deck. Opponent had all the prizes and killed me in the later rounds. Another ChaosRed defeat

But let's not dwell on that, I have learned I am just bad playing on isotropic. The pace is too fast, the boards are overwhelming and diverse and many of the players are impatient.

It's a shark tank. I enjoy it, but I can't last long there, two games and I'm so demoralized, I go back to playing with friends and family.

Border Village is great when there's a superb 5 terminal on the board. Even Border Village+a free Smithy is a nice trade, because you didn't need the +buy to get both of those complimentary cards. It's a fun card, balanced and well-thought out.

popsofctown · « **Reply #28 on:** November 03, 2011, 06:53:56 pm »

Wow, ehunt was the one who made this thread??

I got tempted by a border village in a tournament match against ehunt. I thought about this thread trying to talk myself out of it, but I failed. If I'd known ehunt had made this thread it probably would have been too ironic for me to make the mistake.

I made lots of mistakes that game though.

Jack Rudd · « **Reply #29 on:** November 03, 2011, 07:40:04 pm »

Quote from: ChaosRed on November 03, 2011, 05:23:38 pm

Border Village is great when there's a superb 5 terminal on the board. Even Border Village+a free Smithy is a nice trade, because you didn't need the +buy to get both of those complimentary cards.

As an aside, that should be complementary. The Smithy is the only one of those cards that is complimentary; you had to pay for the Border Village.

theory · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2011, 07:58:45 pm »

He's just referring to the fact that his Smithies and Border Villages praise his good looks whenever he plays them.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #31 on:** November 04, 2011, 12:06:21 am »

Heh, my apologies for the typo, in my defense I can show you threads I had written earlier where I used the correct spelling. Damn homonyms.

guided · « **Reply #32 on:** November 04, 2011, 06:03:15 am »

Homophones

Jimmmmm · « **Reply #33 on:** November 04, 2011, 09:15:19 am »

Which are a type of homonym.

LastFootnote · « **Reply #34 on:** November 04, 2011, 12:36:16 pm »

No, homonyms are a subset of homophones, not the other way around.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #35 on:** November 04, 2011, 01:10:47 pm »

Wow, I mistype one letter and suddenly the thread is ruined. Is it possible I am akin to that purple card in a very special, cleverly-designed card game?

What must I do to atone?

For the record, homonym is correct, if you aren't overly technical or pedantic.

Also, perhaps I was just saying that the second card was free?

Quote

Even Border Village+a free Smithy is a nice trade, because you didn't need the +buy to get both of those complimentary cards.

Definition of COMPLIMENTARY

1 a : expressing praise or admiration : expressing or containing a compliment <a complimentary remark>
b : favorable <the novel received complimentary reviews>

2 : given free as a courtesy or favor <complimentary tickets>

To be fair, I wasn't using it in this context, I meant to use complementary, a word I had used correctly in other threads before this one.

Homonyms 1: This Thread: 0

And I'll do push-ups for penance if you think it will help.

guided · « **Reply #36 on:** November 04, 2011, 01:27:57 pm »

Quote from: ChaosRed on November 04, 2011, 01:10:47 pm

Wow, I mistype one letter and suddenly the thread is ruined. Is it possible I am akin to that purple card in a very special, cleverly-designed card game?

Dude I am just messing around. I promise you I am in no actual way bothered by any of the technical English mistakes you have made ITT.

ChaosRed · « **Reply #37 on:** November 04, 2011, 01:29:50 pm »

I should have put more smilies in my last post to make the tone of the post more obvious.

ehunt · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2011, 01:39:10 pm »

@pops I think the consensus is (and I now think) that I was pretty wrong - BV is not a trap and there are many 5-cost cards satisfying my condition that

card < gold < card + free village

popsofctown · « **Reply #39 on:** November 04, 2011, 05:29:50 pm »

Dude I BVed a city in a Jack game.

There's no forgiveness in heaven or hell for that.

biopower · « **Reply #40 on:** November 04, 2011, 10:32:19 pm »

Quote from: ChaosRed on November 04, 2011, 01:10:47 pm

Wow, I mistype one letter and suddenly the thread is ruined. Is it possible I am akin to that purple card in a very special, cleverly-designed card game?

YuGiOh?

kn1tt3r · « **Reply #41 on:** November 26, 2011, 07:03:52 am »

Border Village is also a great defence against Swindler. Swindle it into a Gold? Or another Border Village plus a $5 card?

popsofctown · « **Reply #42 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:36:17 am »

I dunno. You probably gained a 5$ action with your BV, and those are an especially vulnerable class of card.

dondon151 · « **Reply #43 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:46:28 am »

Quote from: kn1tt3r on November 26, 2011, 07:03:52 am

Border Village is also a great defence against Swindler. Swindle it into a Gold? Or another Border Village plus a $5 card?

BV is about as good of a defense against Swindler as Gold is.

Which is to say, it's about the same as Gold. I mean, if I'd be leery of hitting your Golds if BV and a decent $5 card were in the kingdom.

Kahryl · « **Reply #44 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:04:22 pm »

Quote from: dondon151 on November 28, 2011, 01:46:28 am

Quote from: kn1tt3r on November 26, 2011, 07:03:52 am
Border Village is also a great defence against Swindler. Swindle it into a Gold? Or another Border Village plus a $5 card?

BV is about as good of a defense against Swindler as Gold is.

Which is to say, it's about the same as Gold. I mean, if I'd be leery of hitting your Golds if BV and a decent $5 card were in the kingdom.

I think what he's saying is: if you swindle a gold, you can always just turn it into another gold. Doesn't hurt your opponent and doesn't help him either (plus he just effectively discarded a gold)

If you swindle a border village, then you either have to turn it into another border village - giving your opponent a free $5 card - or turn what is effectively a $3-value village into a $6 value gold. Either way your opponent wins big.

popsofctown · « **Reply #45 on:** November 29, 2011, 02:03:28 am »

Close inspection of dondon's post leads me to believe he's had a mental slip and thought the victim chooses the replacement card. So maybe he doesn't disagree all that much.

dondon151 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 29, 2011, 03:05:30 am »

I, in fact, did not have a mental slip, and knew quite well what I was talking about.

Perhaps you and I have different opinions as to what constitutes a "defense." In a kingdom with BV and Swindler, I'm not going to get BV + $5 card with my $6 purchases just to deter my opponent from playing his Swindler, and if getting BV + $5 card is not as beneficial to my deck as getting a Gold, then I will sure as hell get the Gold, Swindler or not. I don't think it significantly deters anyone from playing Swindler either because in early turns the density of BVs in one's deck is small and Swindler has an equally likely chance to turn that Witch or Wharf into a Duchy.

It certainly puts your opponent in a more awkward position than usual, but BV is not nearly as much of a deterrent to Swindler as Peddler is. And if your opponent is trying to chain BVs with other actions, turning those into Golds instead has the potential to mess him up.

Tables · « **Reply #47 on:** November 29, 2011, 12:09:29 pm »

I think it does serve as a defence, but in general a very minor one. Certainly if your opponent plays Swindler and hits your Border Village, you're very likely to benefit from it, but what's the chance of that happening? Perhaps about 25% of it happening at all as a crude estimate over the course of a game (it depends a lot obviously on many factors)? I'd personally say that's deterrent enough to pick up a Swindler if BV looks good on the board.

As an aside, Hey Dondon. Didn't know you were on here.

rinkworks · « **Reply #48 on:** November 29, 2011, 02:41:05 pm »

This is a very strange debate to me. The original claim was that it was a "great defense against Swindler." While "great" is subjective and therefore unprovable, it doesn't seem very controversial to me that a deck with Border Villages is better off against Swindler than one without.

It doesn't have to be the best defense (i.e., better than Peddler) to be a defense. It doesn't have to be a deterrent either. It merely needs to mitigate the damage that Swindler does. If Swindler is played against a deck with 20% Border Villages, the Swindler will be a significant help, rather than a possibly-significant-but-probably-mild hurt, about 1 out of the 5 times. That qualifies as mitigating the damage. Border Village is therefore a defense against Swindler.

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Author Topic: Is border village a trap? (Read 14063 times)