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Author Topic: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!  (Read 27256 times)

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Tables

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #325 on: June 24, 2013, 06:17:54 pm »

Here was my thoughts on the interesting age III hand IV:
Two Town Halls together, somewhat unfortunate for me. This hand really presents only two choices, and both have some risk:
Build the last wonder stage
Build the Arsenal

There's only one more military card left in circulation (that I don't know). It's in either AHoppy's hand, Archetype's or Liopoil's. If it' in AHoppy's then he's unlikely to build it - it costs him 3 coins (which go to me!) to stay ahead of me. In this case, building it would be good. If it's in one of the other hands, whats the chance it makes it around to AHoppy? Archetype might well take it, it puts him ahead on military compared to both neighbours. In this case he also knows AHoppy doesn't have military in hand, so it's a very likely build. So... actually, it's reasonable that it won't make it's way to AHoppy. But then again, he might wait a little longer in the hope of getting military. On top of this, if I build it and the Circus comes to me, I will win military, which works out as 6VPs per card. If I don't build the Arsenal, AHoppy is unlikely to build any military himself (given the Circus is the only thing he could), BUT if the Arsenal makes it to me, then I can beat him.

On the other side, Michaeljb knows Qvist can build military, and for free. Well, at least Michaeljb CAN know that. So it's unlikely he'll build the... oh, wait. He has an Arsenal. He isn't building military then. For the rest of the game, if I care, in fact.

Hmm... that's quite a conundrum. Lots and lots of possible scenarios, and I have no way of knowing what's going to happen. Building the Arsenal could be anything from setting up a 12 VP play to costing me 3 coins, which is easily enough to go from like first to near last. I think I'm doing okay but I'm not in a winning position. I feel like this is more likely to backfire than go well... I'm really torn on this. Most likely doing this right or wrong will make or break the game for me and either way it's a gamble.

I haven't even mentioned why building a wonder stage is a gamble. How many more useful cards are there for me? Hmm... the remaining Guilds suck for me. Hell, most of the guilds aren't that good for me. Lighthouse and Haven are still pretty decent, not amazing. I think it's likely I'll get at least one more hand where I wanted to bury anyway.

So... whatever I do is taking a chance. I'm going to take the chance with the biggest payoff, and I'd say maybe a... 40% chance of success? Who knows?

Build the Arsenal. Pay Michaeljb 3 coins for a wood and cloth

Fingers crossed.

Built
Gardens: 5 VPs. Chain from: Statue. Cost: Wood, 2 Brick.
Palace: 8 VPs. Cost: Glass, Papyrus, Cloth, Brick, Wood, Ore, Stone.
Palace: 8 VPs. Cost: Glass, Papyrus, Cloth, Brick, Wood, Ore, Stone.
Pantheon: 7 VPs. Chain from: Temple. Cost: 2 Brick, Ore, Papyrus, Cloth, Glass.
Pantheon: 7 VPs. Chain from: Temple. Cost: 2 Brick, Ore, Papyrus, Cloth, Glass.
Town Hall: 6 VPs. Cost: Glass, Ore, 2 Stone.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: Ore, 2 Stone.
Arsenal: 3 Shields. Cost: Ore, 2 Wood, Cloth.
Circus: 3 Shields. Chain from: Training Ground. Cost: 3 Stone, Ore.
Fortifications: 3 Shields. Chain from: Walls. Cost: Stone, 3 Ore.
Fortifications: 3 Shields. Chain from: Walls. Cost: Stone, 3 Ore.
Siege Workshop: 3 Shields. Chain from: Laboratory. Cost: Wood, 3 Brick.
Academy: Compasses. Chain from: School. Cost: 3 Stone, Glass.
Academy: Compasses. Chain from: School. Cost: 3 Stone, Glass.
University: Tablet. Chain from: Library. Cost: 2 Wood, Papyrus, Glass.
University: Tablet. Chain from: Library. Cost: 2 Wood, Papyrus, Glass.
Builders Guild: 1 VP per wonder stage constructed by you and each of your neighbours. Cost: 2 Wood, 2 Brick, Glass.
Philosophers Guild: 1 VP per green card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 3 Brick, Cloth, Papyrus.
Scientists Guild: Compasses/Gear/Tablet. Cost: 2 Wood, 2 Ore, Papyrus.
Spies Guild: 1 VP per red card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 3 Brick, Glass.
Strategists Guild: 1 VP per defeat token in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 2 Ore, Stone, Cloth.



Nkirbit
Lighthouse: 1 Coin & 1 VP per yellow card (including this). Chain from: Caravansery. Cost: Glass, Stone.
Siege Workshop: 3 Shields. Chain from: Laboratory. Cost: Wood, 3 Brick.
Study: Gear. Chain from: School. Cost: Wood, Papyrus, Cloth.
Traders Guild: 1 VP per yellow card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 3 Brick, Cloth, Papyrus.

Qvist
Chamber of Commerce: 2 Coins & 2 VPs per gray card. Cost: 2 Brick, Papyrus.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: Ore, 2 Stone.
Circus: 3 Shields. Chain from: Training Ground. Cost: 3 Stone, Ore.
Lodge: Compasses. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: 2 Brick, Cloth, Papyrus.

Michaeljb
Senate: 6 VPs. Chain from: Library. Cost: Ore, Stone, 2 Wood.
Senate: 6 VPs. Chain from: Library. Cost: Ore, Stone, 2 Wood.
Arena: 3 Coins & 1 VP per wonder stage completed. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: Ore, 2 Stone.
Arsenal: 3 Shields. Cost: Ore, 2 Wood, Cloth.

Tables
Town Hall: 6 VPs. Cost: Glass, Ore, 2 Stone.
Town Hall: 6 VPs. Cost: Glass, Ore, 2 Stone.
Chamber of Commerce: 2 Coins & 2 VPs per gray card. Cost: 2 Brick, Papyrus.
Arsenal: 3 Shields. Cost: Ore, 2 Wood, Cloth.

Rest
Gardens: 5 VPs. Chain from: Statue. Cost: Wood, 2 Brick.
Haven: 1 Coin & 1 VP per brown card. Chain from: Forum. Cost: Cloth, Ore, Wood.
Haven: 1 Coin & 1 VP per brown card. Chain from: Forum. Cost: Cloth, Ore, Wood.
Lighthouse: 1 Coin & 1 VP per yellow card (including this). Chain from: Caravansery. Cost: Glass, Stone.
Circus: 3 Shields. Chain from: Training Ground. Cost: 3 Stone, Ore.
Lodge: Compasses. Chain from: Dispensary. Cost: 2 Brick, Cloth, Papyrus.
Observatory: Gear. Chain from: Laboratory. Cost: 2 Ore, Glass, Cloth.
Observatory: Gear. Chain from: Laboratory. Cost: 2 Ore, Glass, Cloth.
Study: Gear. Chain from: School. Cost: Wood, Papyrus, Cloth.

(6/9 Guilds seen)
Workers Guild: 1 VP per brown card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 2 Ore, Brick, Stone, Wood.
Craftsmens Guild: 2 VPs per gray card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 2 Ore, 2 Stone.
Shipowners Guild: 1 VP per brown, gray and purple card in your city. Cost: 3 Wood, Papyrus, Glass.
Magistrates Guild: 1 VP per blue card in each of your neighbours cities. Cost: 3 Wood, Stone, Cloth.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eHalcyon

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #326 on: June 24, 2013, 06:22:15 pm »

Quote from: eHalcyon
Tables builds Arsenal, which is interesting. I am not keeping track of remaining military cards... are there many remaining? It is a dangerous gambit. He is only 1 ahead of Ahoppy and still 1 behind mjb. That red just earned him 6 points if AHoppy cannot respond, which is a solid play. It's a gamble, because AHoppy may very well build another red (especially since it'll ensure his lead on Archetype). On the flip side, it gives Tables a chance to earn another 6 points if he can find one more red to overtake mjb. Again, I would have a better sense of this play if I went to check how many reds are remaining. But I am lazy.
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Tables

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #327 on: June 24, 2013, 06:26:13 pm »

Short answer: There was only one more red AHoppy could see all game, he was unlikely to build it that round as it cost him 3 coins, and it wouldn't look necessary, while Rhodes was quite likely to build it when he saw it. And if it did pass to me, I won both militaries without issue. It was a risk, but after evaluation, a lot less risky than it looked.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eHalcyon

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #328 on: June 24, 2013, 07:27:01 pm »

Short answer: There was only one more red AHoppy could see all game, he was unlikely to build it that round as it cost him 3 coins, and it wouldn't look necessary, while Rhodes was quite likely to build it when he saw it. And if it did pass to me, I won both militaries without issue. It was a risk, but after evaluation, a lot less risky than it looked.

Yeah, I was commenting without checking on the reds that had already been played (plus I didn't know what you had already seen and passed on).
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michaeljb

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #329 on: June 24, 2013, 09:07:30 pm »

So, at the start of this game, it was my second ever 7 Wonders game. The game where I learned included one major rules flaw: they thought each player was dealt (number of players)+1 cards instead of 7. I won that game, getting most of my points from military (it was also with the Leaders expansion, and I had Leonidas and Caesar).

Since we got started, I've taught 7 Wonders to some friends and family, and have a little experience in 3p and 4p now.

The only Guild I saw was Traders Guild, which would have only been worth 5VP for me at the end. I don't have much interesting to say about my "strategy" for this game, I'm definitely still pretty new to 7 Wonders. I guess my 2 red cards in Age III only netted me 7VP so I could have probably helped myself more with something else. Happy I wasn't last, but sad I lost to both of my neighbors. I've found I tend to ignore the other opponents quite a bit...and I definitely don't have a good feel on how to deal with what my neighbors I doing anyway. I have a lot to improve on :)

Anyway, gg all! Twistedarcher, thanks for hosting!
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Tables

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #330 on: June 24, 2013, 09:27:06 pm »

As a general rule of thumb, I'd say, focus on your own position mainly, and only when needed, look at the neighbour you're passing to, and worry little about the other. There's not much you can do to affect the person passing you cards. In particular: They pass military cards to you, meaning they see military cards before you. This leads to an interesting but important subtlety with military: It's much easier to beat the person you pass cards to, than it is to beat the person passing you cards. My age III was something of an exception here, mainly due to card tracking, but if luck had swung a little differently, I'd have beaten you in military as well in age III, with essentially two cards worth 6 VPs each.

Military aside, I probably spend more time looking at the person two to my left (switch left/right for age II) than I do looking at the person on my right - most of my looking to the right will be just checking resources, in fact. You just can't really affect them. You're at their mercy in terms of card picks, but unless they're very vindictive, they're only going to bury or discard when it's advantageous for them. But with the people one or two to your left, you should be careful of what cards they want and have. Occasionally, it's worth taking a 1 VP hit to deny them something really key (generally this means the last vital science card), but rarely more than that. Well... in a 7 player game at least. In a 3 player game, suddenly doing things like discarding a science card for money becomes a viable option. 7 wonders isn't very political, but denying 1/2 of your opponents 10 VPs is a reasonable play. Denying 10 VPs to 1/6th of your opponents... a lot less so, unless you know the current score and predicted end score.

Whew, I think I said more here than I thought I would. Perhaps I should help get 7 Wonders Strategy running...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

michaeljb

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #331 on: June 24, 2013, 10:05:10 pm »

+1, would read 7 Wonders Strategy (I imagine it'd be easier to read than this novella* posted at BGG, which I want to read but just...haven't yet)

*running Emacs' count-words tells me it's 25,112 words long
edit: copying it into Word without messing with the formatting (so single-spaced, size 12 font) says its 46 pages long...  :o
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 10:08:30 pm by michaeljb »
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Tables

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #332 on: June 24, 2013, 10:11:15 pm »

Right now, I believe it's me and Archetype who have access to the site. Well and theory of course. I think eHalc would be a good other one to contribute. In fact I have some spare time now, perhaps it's time we got to actually getting some basics down on that site...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

liopoil

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #333 on: June 24, 2013, 10:13:20 pm »

I skimmed that a while ago... it's really interesting, but a lot of that is just about distributions about playing with different numbers of players and the different wonders.

7 wonders strategy would be awesome. I think games with fewer players are especially complex, and I don't understand them much at all.
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liopoil

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #334 on: June 24, 2013, 10:15:09 pm »

tables, why did you choose the A-side?
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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #335 on: June 24, 2013, 10:16:38 pm »

I'm perfectly fine with whoever wants to join; everyone did better than me in this game anyway! Then again, I'm only good at 3P. I think eHalc would be a great addition.
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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #336 on: June 24, 2013, 10:17:11 pm »

tables, why did you choose the A-side?
Oh, yeah. I'd like to know the answer to this too.
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eHalcyon

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #337 on: June 24, 2013, 10:29:34 pm »

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12472494#12472494

Quote from: Tables
I recently had a 7 player game as Gizah, between two manufactured goods wonders and Rhodes 2 away from me on my left. In that case, I chose side A, instead of the usually considered better side B - or I would have seriously struggeled to get the resources I needed. Ephesos is probably the only one I'd never consider side A.

I PM'd Tables asking if this was about this game, and he confirmed it.  He also thought he had been busted by Galz when it was just me. :P
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Tables

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #338 on: June 24, 2013, 10:41:31 pm »

Oh come on, it's easy to accidentally misread who sent a PM once. It's not like I did it twice in that game (AHoppy: No contradicting me).

Yeah, basically it came down to, will I be able to build side B? And my answer was, there's a good chance I won't. In 7 player, resources are a little harder to get, and I was between two manufactured goods wonders unlikely to build many resources. In fact go have a look. From neighbours, I had available from neighbours:
1 Stone
1 Wood
1 Brick
Cloth
Glass*
Papyrus

*From both sides, but nothing needs more than 1 Glass.

That's so little, and I wouldn't even say it was atypical considering those wonders. For side A I need 3 Stone and 3 Wood (beyond my initial resource). For side B I need 2 Wood, 3 Brick, 3 Stone and a Papyrus. As it turns out I didn't get the Brick I'd have needed, although that's a flawed comparison as I wasn't trying, but at the very least, it'd have cost 1 coin and another card play, and of course a second card play to the wonder itself. I'd score better on Arena and Haven sure, so that's 7 VPs over two cards overall I'd have gained, IF I actually had the chance to get that Brickyard. I dunno, I think that doesn't sound too good considering my late age II was alright and age III went well, so it's hard to say if I'd have done better or worse. But I think I made the right choice, given the knowledge available at the start of the game.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eHalcyon

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #339 on: June 24, 2013, 10:54:07 pm »

Right now, I believe it's me and Archetype who have access to the site. Well and theory of course. I think eHalc would be a good other one to contribute. In fact I have some spare time now, perhaps it's time we got to actually getting some basics down on that site...

The point of strategy I have the worst time with is Age II resource cards.  As an example, I recently played a 4p game IRL where I was Rhodes B.  In Age I I built an Ore/X card as well as a single Ore.  With my starting resource, that gives me 3.  I did not get Caravansery and neither of my neighbours built Ore (one was Olympia B and he just traded all game; the other was Gizah B and only built what he needed for his own wonders).  I was forced to get the double Ore.  Of course the single Ore was completely unnecessary and I could have put that hand to better use.  But was it better to build the single and hope for Caravansery or a neighbour to oblige me?  If I went into Age II with only 2 Ore, I would have been fully reliant on getting that double Ore.

In general, I think I tend to undervalue Age II resources and try not to build them unless absolutely necessary.
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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #340 on: June 25, 2013, 12:54:15 am »

+1, would read 7 Wonders Strategy (I imagine it'd be easier to read than this novella* posted at BGG, which I want to read but just...haven't yet)

*running Emacs' count-words tells me it's 25,112 words long
edit: copying it into Word without messing with the formatting (so single-spaced, size 12 font) says its 46 pages long...  :o
I read it.  It's interesting, but so much to remember when playing the game.  But I think it did help me understand it better.  Basically what I learned from it: memorize everything, all the cards in the game, especially their costs, and which ones are available with a given number of players.

And tables, I think you made the right choice for side A.  I thought that was why you chose that at the beginning, especially being next to ephesus, which doesn't really want to build resources. 

The thing I think that killed me was Archetype not going for his wonder and instead stealing all my science :P  I thought science would be a great way to go for me, since I was in between Gizah and Rhodes.  But no, didn't work... Especially with Archetype being on my right... 'twas a real bummer.  Still, it was fun.  I haven't played with any of the expansions, and from what I hear (mostly from reading the BGG novella) is that they (leaders, I don't think cities was out at the time of writing) arr more luck to the game and less strategy.  And I'm all about the planning and strategy (even if I suck at it).  What does anyone else think of the expansions?  Also, 7 wonders strategy would be pretty cool.

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #341 on: June 25, 2013, 01:06:49 am »

Quote
Basically what I learned from it: memorize everything, all the cards in the game, especially their costs, and which ones are available with a given number of players.
Figured that'd be important.


Quote
What does anyone else think of the expansions?
I think Cities looks pretty cool. The forced coin discard thing wouldn't go over very well with some of my friends though :P
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eHalcyon

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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #342 on: June 25, 2013, 02:37:23 am »

+1, would read 7 Wonders Strategy (I imagine it'd be easier to read than this novella* posted at BGG, which I want to read but just...haven't yet)

*running Emacs' count-words tells me it's 25,112 words long
edit: copying it into Word without messing with the formatting (so single-spaced, size 12 font) says its 46 pages long...  :o
I read it.  It's interesting, but so much to remember when playing the game.  But I think it did help me understand it better.  Basically what I learned from it: memorize everything, all the cards in the game, especially their costs, and which ones are available with a given number of players.

And tables, I think you made the right choice for side A.  I thought that was why you chose that at the beginning, especially being next to ephesus, which doesn't really want to build resources. 

The thing I think that killed me was Archetype not going for his wonder and instead stealing all my science :P  I thought science would be a great way to go for me, since I was in between Gizah and Rhodes.  But no, didn't work... Especially with Archetype being on my right... 'twas a real bummer.  Still, it was fun.  I haven't played with any of the expansions, and from what I hear (mostly from reading the BGG novella) is that they (leaders, I don't think cities was out at the time of writing) arr more luck to the game and less strategy.  And I'm all about the planning and strategy (even if I suck at it).  What does anyone else think of the expansions?  Also, 7 wonders strategy would be pretty cool.

IIRC, Archetype started science before you did.  You may have planned it from the beginning, but Arche built green before you did.  That was early enough that you could still have changed gears, and I absolutely would have in your place.  You ended up the third Science player behind both nkirbit and Archetype for Ages I and III.  You are the first for Age II, but still.  You had no greens when Arche built his first one; you could have done something else rather than putting it to 3 science players (which just weakens that strategy for everyone involved).

Or maybe you could have just sniped a single green set and left it at that, leveraging your position for Age II and stealing some chains from the two dedicated science players.
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Re: 7 Wonders IV Game Over - Liopoil wins!
« Reply #343 on: June 25, 2013, 12:00:06 pm »

Science is honestly the strategy I understand least, but here's what I'd say:

There's no shame making one science set. It's 10VPs over three cards, which is pretty alright for a mix of age I and age II cards (not so great if you need to use age III cards as well). Each card also gives a chain to something else - mostly blues and reds - which is nice. It limits the amount of science other people can go for, while giving you a respectable score boost. In addition, if people deny you extra science, that often means they'll pass you more other cards you can use, and if they don't, then you often have access to 3 VP science cards in a pinch (possibly 5 VP, if you end up going 2-1-1).

In your position, I think this would have been a good choice, and really it's what you ended up doing, accidentally or not. You get some VPs from science, and put added pressure on the other people going science. The people passing science were on your right, which is not great - it means they were taking the cards before you in two ages.

Two science sets is generally the goal I'll go for, if I'm actually doing a science strategy. This gives 26 VPs, and is generally achievable even if others go for science. You want to really play 2 cards in age I, and 2-3 cards in age II. The School is valuable here, as it chains to two other symbols (and if you didn't need those symbols, you did need the tablet of the School itself!) AND there's only one tablet card in age III. Side note: If fighting Science and you aren't sure, bury the School! To build this much science you want access to all three manufactured goods. As before, this opens you up to building 5 VP extra cards - which is below average but still good even in age III, and people will be much more likely to bury science and pass you other cards you can use.
Be aware, 26 VPs is still less than half the score you're probably gunning for, but is also probably less than half the cards you're playing. Don't expect to win if you scrape 2 science sets at the expense of all else.

When playing Babylon, and/or with expansions, three science sets is viable - but it's still a big risk. Three sets requires 9 card plays and gives 48 VPs, and others are very likely to start denying you the cards you need. I'd suggest only going for three sets if nobody else on the table is doing science. Even if you achieve this, 48VPs is not a winning score, but it is pretty close. In the base game, winning scores are typically around 60 VPs, give or take, so with wonder stages and a little extra, this can be almost your entire gameplan. But with expansions, more card plays mean bigger winning scores... with both expansions, you should be looking for more like 70VPs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 12:05:49 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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