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Author Topic: How many points is 1st player advantage?  (Read 10295 times)

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serakfalcon

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 11:42:38 pm »
0

Just as a note for extra reading, you might want to read up on chess960, as it was designed by chessmaster Bobby Fischer to make chess more 'dominion-like' by emphasizing improvisation over memorization of best starts
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eHalcyon

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 12:37:29 am »
+3

Relevant video.

The legendary Richard Garfield discusses luck and skill in games.  Spoiler: there is luck in Chess.
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GwinnR

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2013, 01:10:56 am »
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But then you are adding luck to the system in the form of a coin flip. The game itself is all about choices with imperfect information. Choices aren't lucky or unlucky, they are good or bad, with the goodness or badness of them being determined by the information that you don't have (what your opponent will do). In fact, even 'adding luck' in this way doesn't really add luck: if every decision in Diplomacy was made by a coin toss, then who wins and loses would be able to be calculated using probability. The outcome of any one game might be random but on average we can know the distribution of wins and losses exactly. So, even in being random its still deterministic.
I don't know the game, but in general this might be wrong. If not you could say, that coin-flipping isn't luck, because the choice you do (guessing which side is upside) is good or bad, determined by the information you (don't) have (nothing; or if you want to be really exact: the knowledge of the flipping-speed, aerodynamic drag,...).
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ftl

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2013, 01:31:56 am »
+1

Consider two different versions of the same game.

In one of them, you guess heads or tails, and then your friend flips a coin and you win if you guessed right.

In the other, your friend flips the coin *first*, and covers up the result with his hand without showing it to you. THEN you guess the value of the already-determined coin flip, and you win if you guessed right.

If whatever definition of randomness in games you're using leads to the conclusion that the second one isn't a game of luck your definitions could probably use some work.
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serakfalcon

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2013, 01:37:37 am »
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Quote
If whatever definition of randomness in games you're using leads to the conclusion that the second one isn't a game of luck your definitions could probably use some work.
both are games of chance. Chance is not the same as luck.
I don't agree that luck is uncertainty of outcome, its randomly having access to better outcomes.
Uncertainty of outcomes is boring, because there's still likely a nash equilibrium, or 'best possible play' for every game.
in your example, whether or not the friend flips the coin before or after doesn't change the way you should guess.
Randomly having access to better outcomes changes the dynamics of the game from the outset.
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SCSN

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2013, 01:48:11 am »
+1

Quote
If we both choose the same one to attack/defend, you hold both; but if we choose differently, I capture one from you. In that case, the optimal strategy would be for you to flip a coin to pick which one to defend.

That would be the Nash Equilibrium, but not the best play if you perceive yourself to be better at emulating your opponent's thought process or noticing patterns in his choices than he is at yours. Just like in RPS, opting for Nash rather than trying to play maximally exploitive is resigning yourself to mediocrity.

Here is a pretty cool page discussing the strategy of a certain RPS bot.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:49:44 am by SheCantSayNo »
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soulnet

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 08:36:06 am »
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Nash Equilibrium is by no means optimal play -this should be clear from the fact that is not even unique and the set may not even be finite if the game is not finite-, especially if you play several times with the same person or group.

About chance vs luck, I think is just a discussion for people deep into lacanian psychoanalysis, because its only a different choice of words, which unluckily was different for some of us than to others. The thing is that some random events affect the outcome of games, some are easily perceived, like the dice throws in backgammon, and some are more hidden, like the randomness in human behavior impacting on chess games.
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soulnet

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 08:41:36 am »
0

Relevant video.

The legendary Richard Garfield discusses luck and skill in games.  Spoiler: there is luck in Chess.

I don't think just +1 was enough, I want to post my +1 because the video is great and I want to recommend it too.

So, +1.
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-Stef-

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 12:47:01 pm »
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Although you could try to express the 1st player advantage in a certain amount of points, I don't think I'd like that.
It depends a lot on the kingdom. Doing some kind of bidding after seeing the kingdom is an option but introduces a whole new concept to the game.
It also feels a bit like fighting the very nature of dominion - luck just is a huge part of what it is and what keeps it interesting.

However, maybe in tournaments and especially for purposes of a leaderboard, I'd favor putting different weights on a win/tie/loss.

For example, you could change 0.0/1.0/2.0 win points for loss/tie/win to
0.0/0.95/1.9 for P1 and 0.1/1.05/2.0 for P2

(actually you should base these numbers on stats, but this is my estimate of what's fair)
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yudantaiteki

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 01:48:09 pm »
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How many games are there that assign a specific point value to 1st player advantage, rather than attempting to compensate for it in some other way?  Go is the only one I know of.
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theschizm

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 02:54:18 pm »
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How many games are there that assign a specific point value to 1st player advantage, rather than attempting to compensate for it in some other way?  Go is the only one I know of.

Out of games I'm familiar with including some non-first player compensation, most give more "money" to start, and few give an actual VP advantage. The only one to come to mind: On the Underground gives later players more points to start.
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soulnet

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 03:30:44 pm »
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Puerto Rico and San Juan both give players that play last some advantage in the form of better startup state.

Risk/War (at least the Argentinian version, TEG, which I'm not exactly sure which one it copies or attempts to copy) also gives the players in the last positions possibly more countries to start (if the number of players is not a divisor of the number of countries for the version its being played).

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Stealth Tomato

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 03:36:13 pm »
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Of note, some Dominion boards contain an inherent compensation for second player: The opportunity to see and respond to the opponent's opening moves. Unfortunately this is for the most part only relevant when both players have the same opening hands in the same order.
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blueblimp

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 12:43:52 am »
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Relevant video.

The legendary Richard Garfield discusses luck and skill in games.  Spoiler: there is luck in Chess.
Watching this made me think how innovator-friendly Dominion is (regarding his categorization of players as innovators vs honers):
  • Shuffle luck within the game requires adapting to different situations.
  • Random selection of kingdoms encourages developing a unique strategy every game--so it's more important to invent a good strategy in the first place, since you can't hone it over multiple games.
  • Continual release of expansions introduces new mechanics to incorporate into play.
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Davio

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Re: How many points is 1st player advantage?
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 02:36:31 am »
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Well, regarding Dominion I think people always start as Innovators, but end up as Honers.

You have to innovate with so many different setups, but after a while you begin to spot patterns and notice that some cards are more dominant than others so the question becomes more like: "Do I get X first or Y?" And you begin thinking about PPR and such details.

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