Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?  (Read 9326 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

juffowup

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +57
    • View Profile
How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« on: May 09, 2013, 12:13:58 am »
+2

I've been thinking about gender representation in the board games I own and I was thinking of calculating the answer to this question. I decided write down what my personal estimate was before counting, and figured it would be an interesting exercise to see what others thought as well.

Please answer this according to your best estimation right now and without consulting a resource.  Among Dominion cards that feature a single character, what percentage feature a woman?

For the purposes of this question, we only consider those cards with a single human who is the subject of the art, and only when that person's gender is visible.  For simplicity, each card counts once for each time it occurs in a typical complete collection--each knight/prize is one card, each standard non-victory kingdom card is 10 cards, each standard victory kingdom card counts as 12 cards.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 02:23:16 am »
+2

Not exactly your question, but you might want to read

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1312.0

edit:spoiler over url doesn't work...
Logged

elahrairah13

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +73
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 10:14:24 pm »
+3

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.
Logged

yudantaiteki

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 234
  • Respect: +167
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 10:50:08 pm »
+3

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic, but winning a tournament to gain a princess is a pretty standard medieval trope; is it really that offensive?

In any case the Princess is clearly a very skilled merchant or haggler, so she's going beyond her gender stereotype. :)  (More seriously, the card art seems less stereotypical than usual; is it just me or does she have some kind of weapons?)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 10:52:01 pm by yudantaiteki »
Logged

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1097
  • Respect: +1067
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 10:58:26 pm »
+1

you also win 'followers' for winning a tournament. that doesn't mean that those individuals are now your slaves or any form of property because you 'won' them. they are simply impressed by your abilities in winning the tournament. might be reading a little too much into it here mate.
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 11:04:58 pm »
+9

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.

More offensive than Expanding a Trusty Steed into a Village? That's animal cruelty, man.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 11:54:00 pm »
+12

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.

More offensive than Expanding a Trusty Steed into a Village? That's animal cruelty, man.

Talk about beating a dead horse.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 03:32:10 am »
+10

Hey, if I only could remodel a Sea Hag into a Harem IRL...

theschizm

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 09:18:51 am »
0

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.

And Princess Jasmine agrees with you!
Logged

Schlippy

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 203
  • Respect: +60
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 12:56:08 pm »
0

I voted for 10-15% but the more I think about it the more I am sure the number is actually quite a bit lower. Sure, there are Witches and some Dames, but besides them there's not a lot of cards, and a bunch of them don't even count because there is more than 1 character on it.
Logged
I do upload some Dominion videos on youtube now. :)

elahrairah13

  • Spy
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +73
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 01:28:18 pm »
+2

Actually not sarcastic. Overstated though, yes (my biggest personal problem with messageboards is that I post in a hurry and sometimes say things in a pretty goofy way).

But here's my explanation:

My daughter likes Dominion (although we haven't played in a few months, so much going on)
 
I hadn't really thought about the implications of the card name until she played her first Cornucopia game and we played with Tournament. She really wanted to win a prize. She was 5. She didn't manage her deck very well, so it took her awhile.

She also really sees herself in the media she consumes. She prefers band with female singers. She prefers movies with female leads (and have you noticed how most kids' movies are dominated by male leads? random example: it took pixar 13 films to make one where the main character is female).

Many little girls her age are into the princess thing (not sure if it's big internationally or not, but in the US disney does a TON of branding of the 'disney princess' line), and so people are always talking about girls being princesses, calling them 'Princess', etc.
And we were playing Dominion, and I just had that 'huh' moment when it clicked in that Princess was a prize, like a bag of gold, a crown...

Yeah, I know it's a standard medieval storyline... but that doesn't mean I don't wince when I see it and generally aspire for media to have different storylines.
Dominion is generally pretty good about gender... females are depicted on cards (unlike Castle Panic for example). I know Donald has posted that he wanted ambiguous gender description (players described as "they" instead of "he") but that the publisher changed it.

Witch is one of her favorite cards to play with, even though she hates being cursed. I'm pretty sure it's because she wants to buy a powerful female card.
Logged

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 01:32:18 pm »
0

I voted for 10-15% but the more I think about it the more I am sure the number is actually quite a bit lower. Sure, there are Witches and some Dames, but besides them there's not a lot of cards, and a bunch of them don't even count because there is more than 1 character on it.

I understood 'single character' in a way that harem does not count (even if there was only a single woman on it), but witch does count (even if there were several witches on the card), so for me it depends on the card's name. A card named "witches" would not count then. Did I misinterprete anything here?
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1323
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1379
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 01:47:28 pm »
+1

I voted for 10-15% but the more I think about it the more I am sure the number is actually quite a bit lower. Sure, there are Witches and some Dames, but besides them there's not a lot of cards, and a bunch of them don't even count because there is more than 1 character on it.

I understood 'single character' in a way that harem does not count (even if there was only a single woman on it), but witch does count (even if there were several witches on the card), so for me it depends on the card's name. A card named "witches" would not count then. Did I misinterprete anything here?

I think by "Witches" he meant members of the set {Witch, Young Witch, Sea Hag}, each of which has one woman pictured on it.
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 01:59:14 pm »
+1

Actually not sarcastic. Overstated though, yes (my biggest personal problem with messageboards is that I post in a hurry and sometimes say things in a pretty goofy way).

But here's my explanation:

My daughter likes Dominion (although we haven't played in a few months, so much going on)
 
I hadn't really thought about the implications of the card name until she played her first Cornucopia game and we played with Tournament. She really wanted to win a prize. She was 5. She didn't manage her deck very well, so it took her awhile.

She also really sees herself in the media she consumes. She prefers band with female singers. She prefers movies with female leads (and have you noticed how most kids' movies are dominated by male leads? random example: it took pixar 13 films to make one where the main character is female).

Many little girls her age are into the princess thing (not sure if it's big internationally or not, but in the US disney does a TON of branding of the 'disney princess' line), and so people are always talking about girls being princesses, calling them 'Princess', etc.
And we were playing Dominion, and I just had that 'huh' moment when it clicked in that Princess was a prize, like a bag of gold, a crown...

Yeah, I know it's a standard medieval storyline... but that doesn't mean I don't wince when I see it and generally aspire for media to have different storylines.
Dominion is generally pretty good about gender... females are depicted on cards (unlike Castle Panic for example). I know Donald has posted that he wanted ambiguous gender description (players described as "they" instead of "he") but that the publisher changed it.

Witch is one of her favorite cards to play with, even though she hates being cursed. I'm pretty sure it's because she wants to buy a powerful female card.

Eh... I don't really agree that that's the message. I mean, if you are interpreting it literally that Princess is a prize to be won from a Tournament, well, would it be any better if she was available to be bought from the supply?

The objectification is happening because the cards are literally objects, not because there is some deliberate theme of owning other people.
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Kuildeous

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3840
  • Respect: +2219
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 02:03:59 pm »
+2

I actually have been thinking of redoing the 'Princess' card. The idea that a woman is a prize to be won is one of my least favorite things about Dominion.

It's really not that big of a deal. I mean, she's in another castle.
Logged
A man has no signature

itchiko

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Hear me roar
  • Respect: +81
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 02:17:54 pm »
0

Actually not sarcastic. Overstated though, yes (my biggest personal problem with messageboards is that I post in a hurry and sometimes say things in a pretty goofy way).

But here's my explanation:

My daughter likes Dominion (although we haven't played in a few months, so much going on)
 
I hadn't really thought about the implications of the card name until she played her first Cornucopia game and we played with Tournament. She really wanted to win a prize. She was 5. She didn't manage her deck very well, so it took her awhile.

She also really sees herself in the media she consumes. She prefers band with female singers. She prefers movies with female leads (and have you noticed how most kids' movies are dominated by male leads? random example: it took pixar 13 films to make one where the main character is female).

Many little girls her age are into the princess thing (not sure if it's big internationally or not, but in the US disney does a TON of branding of the 'disney princess' line), and so people are always talking about girls being princesses, calling them 'Princess', etc.
And we were playing Dominion, and I just had that 'huh' moment when it clicked in that Princess was a prize, like a bag of gold, a crown...

Yeah, I know it's a standard medieval storyline... but that doesn't mean I don't wince when I see it and generally aspire for media to have different storylines.
Dominion is generally pretty good about gender... females are depicted on cards (unlike Castle Panic for example). I know Donald has posted that he wanted ambiguous gender description (players described as "they" instead of "he") but that the publisher changed it.

Witch is one of her favorite cards to play with, even though she hates being cursed. I'm pretty sure it's because she wants to buy a powerful female card.

I will play the Devil's advocate here a little but i think the problem may not be Dominion related.
The idea of offering the hand of the princess to the winner of a Tournament is a pretty common representation of the image of the courteous chivalry. It is also a clear reminder of the gender roles that are linked to it.

The problem you have here is more related to the fact that society is still conveying that symbol of Princesses to our children to this days.
The simple fact that your daughter identify herself as a princess is already a potential alteration of her personality construction in a more passive role (cf/ fairy tales, video games,...).
I know that Disney (and others Nintendo for example face the same issue) has tried really hard to change that representation in the last decades, trying to give them more active roles. I am thinking of "Brave" and "Tangled" for example, but there is other examples.

My 2 cents would be: don't avoid the subject and use that occasion to illustrate the history of Women's liberation. I am pretty sure you can at least explain it in simple enough concept that a five years old can understand.

But of course that's your daughter so your the one making the call here. Educate her the way you think is best. ^^
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11809
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12848
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 02:56:59 pm »
0

elahrairah13: If people are violently getting killed in movies, do you dislike those movies or do you just tell your daughter not to watch them until she's a little bit older?
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

ftl

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2056
  • Shuffle iT Username: ftl
  • Respect: +1345
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 02:57:30 pm »
0

Why not both?
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 03:39:46 pm »
+2

Why not both?
Why not Zoidberg?!

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 03:42:31 pm »
0

Eh... I don't really agree that that's the message. I mean, if you are interpreting it literally that Princess is a prize to be won from a Tournament, well, would it be any better if she was available to be bought from the supply?

The objectification is happening because the cards are literally objects, not because there is some deliberate theme of owning other people.

It's different in that, as a card from the supply, the metaphor is more that you have these people (Witches, Stewards, Margraves, etc.) within your dominion.  That the Princess is won from a Tournament hits on the medieval trope that, yes, is somewhat objectifying of women.  I am OK with it because it is thematic and historical.  If playing with a child, it does present a good opportunity to talk about gender roles and such.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 03:47:24 pm »
0

Eh... I don't really agree that that's the message. I mean, if you are interpreting it literally that Princess is a prize to be won from a Tournament, well, would it be any better if she was available to be bought from the supply?

The objectification is happening because the cards are literally objects, not because there is some deliberate theme of owning other people.

It's different in that, as a card from the supply, the metaphor is more that you have these people (Witches, Stewards, Margraves, etc.) within your dominion.  That the Princess is won from a Tournament hits on the medieval trope that, yes, is somewhat objectifying of women.  I am OK with it because it is thematic and historical.  If playing with a child, it does present a good opportunity to talk about gender roles and such.
If you want to look at it this way, you can look at winning a tournament leading to winning the princess's heart - of course, this is also somewhat problematic, but probably more thematic in any respect.
I think it goes without saying that if we switch princess to prince and females to males, it's still quite bad.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 03:53:36 pm »
0

Maybe the Princess, noting that the player who won the Tournament was already the master of at least one Province, and a stack of other commendable resources, made the shrewd decision to join him and his superior engine of economic production?
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2644
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3388
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2013, 03:55:13 pm »
+1

Then again, she has to be pretty cross about likely getting picked third, after the Tournament winner had prioritized a shiny new horse and a horde of glum followers.

If the Tournament winner is from the Cities, he even chooses a stupid piece of jewelry before he picks her!
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 03:57:31 pm »
0

Then again, she has to be pretty cross about likely getting picked third, after the Tournament winner had prioritized a shiny new horse and a horde of glum followers.

If the Tournament winner is from the Cities, he even chooses a stupid piece of jewelry before he picks her!

Depends on how big the Cities are, I think.
Logged

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: How many women do you think are on dominion cards?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2013, 03:57:39 pm »
0

Then again, she has to be pretty cross about likely getting picked third, after the Tournament winner had prioritized a shiny new horse and a horde of glum followers.

If the Tournament winner is from the Cities, he even chooses a stupid piece of jewelry before he picks her!

Oh, that reminds me, one game I saw that the Tournament and Cities were in the supply so I made it my goal to play the diadem and the princess after a bajillion cities...  I only pulled it off once, and it ended the game.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.076 seconds with 21 queries.