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Author Topic: "Fixing" cards that you don't like  (Read 18486 times)

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Awaclus

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"Fixing" cards that you don't like
« on: May 08, 2013, 11:57:22 am »
+1

I think we've had discussion on making weak cards more powerful, but I don't remember a thread about changing cards without the purpose of making them more powerful or weaker, just changing them so that you personally would enjoy games with it more. The title says "cards that you don't like", but you can also improve cards that you already like.


Lighthouse
$3 Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
+$1
___
While this is in play, when another player plays an attack card, it doesn't affect you.

The problem I have with Lighthouse is that it isn't terminal. You can piledrive them if you want and they'll never collide. The thing that I like about Moat and Watchtower is that they increase player interaction, but I feel like Lighthouse actually decreases player interaction, because you can't interact with someone who always has a Lighthouse in play. Also, Lighthouse isn't very good in games without attack cards. Therefore, I replaced the +1 Action with something that sometimes makes you want to buy Lighthouse even when there are no attacks: +1 Buy. This version is almost better than Woodcutter, so I felt like I had to increase the price.


Goons
$6 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
You may trash up to two treasure cards from your hand.
___
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1VP

The attack part of Goons feels slightly out of place and it really hurts when you get your first $6 hand hit by your opponent's Goons. Trashing possibly makes getting an early Goons even more important, but at least it doesn't make your opponents' early Goons buys less likely to happen. Also, it makes buying Coppers for the +VP more attractive (though still often a trap), because it has a built-in way to get rid of them.
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gman314

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 01:48:07 pm »
0

I think Transmute for $4 would be an awesome card.
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 04:02:26 pm »
+1

I would cost Familiar at $P.
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soulnet

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 04:12:25 pm »
0

I would cost Familiar at $P.

Would be swingy with cheap +Buy in the kingdom, because colliding Woodcutter and Potion would probably give you Familiar+Silver, while the opponent is stucked with Familiar or Silver (probably familiar) and you have twice the economy they have (two Silvers to their one) just because of that collision. Probably less swingy than the current 3P, but I would still try 2P or maybe 1P, which is pretty rare not to get if your second opening buy is something that either gives money or replaces it-self. Also, making it just $P would make the Familiar pile a cheap do-nothing cantrip if you have the Buys, so its a pile that will quickly go down in engine games with +Buy, which are already pretty fast to have 2 piles (Familiar and Curses) emptied in less than 10 turns.
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popsofctown

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 01:04:27 am »
0

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 01:39:07 am »
0

Familiar - Action, $P

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player gains a curse.
---------
You may not buy this after another card, and you may not buy another card after buying this one.
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Davio

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 01:50:43 am »
0

Tournament: Make all the prizes the same, like 5 Trusty Steeds or something, it will still be a good card because of its early Peddler ability.
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 08:49:09 am »
0

Tournament: Make all the prizes the same, like 5 Trusty Steeds or something, it will still be a good card because of its early Peddler ability.

This is kind of like saying Masquerade would be better if it were "+2 cards; you may trash a card from your hand".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 09:31:19 am »
+2

I've posted most of these elsewhere, but:

Transmute
Action - $P
(Same effect as before)
---
When you gain this, +1 buy

It significantly lowers the opportunity cost of getting one, and gives a little perk to the treasure trashing option should you choose to take it. Also it's probably the only chance the game has at putting this when gain effect on a card (putting on a card without a potion cost means you can make a run on the pile with enough Highways etc.).

Fortress
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
---
When you gain or trash this, put it in your hand.

If any card should work this way, it's fortress.

Marauder
Action/Attack - $4
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile
Each other player gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand

I like the tradeoff between short term and long term.

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:37:16 am by NoMoreFun »
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GendoIkari

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 09:42:36 am »
0

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.
I agree it would be fun, but probably way too powerful. The ability to get lots of actions in a draw-your-deck engine... 1 or 2 of these, and you don't need any other Villages. Also, simply +2 cards, +1 action, Discard a card is probably pretty good sifting.

When are you shuffling unnecessarily though? If you don't add any actions to your deck, and you didn't have any knowledge about the order of your deck, then you've already successfully shuffled before your first riffle... the definition of shuffling is randomizing your deck so that the order of cards isn't known. That has been accomplished... no one I know of would ever force you to actually shuffle redundantly in the situation, you've already met the requirements.

Quote
Farming Village
Action - $2
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.

Um, that Farming Village is a good bit better than the regular one, and costs way less? :o

*Edit* I see you fixed the cost. I still think it needs to be a $5, though.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 09:54:44 am by GendoIkari »
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soulnet

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 09:47:35 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 09:54:07 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.

Looks like the $2 was a typo. I still agree it's too god for $4. It might work as a $5. It's not strictly better than Scout though... if it finds an action on top, it was just a regular Village. You might still have 3 green cards below it that are stuck there for your next draws; Scout would have picked those up (plus just the rearranging ability for when you don't find green).
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NoMoreFun

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2013, 10:20:58 am »
0

New Farming Village is waaay too powerful. Is strictly superior to regular Village, strictly superior to Scout and it costs $2? I think even at $4 it would be overpowered, although it would be bad at $5.

Why people do not like FV? I like it as it is.

Looks like the $2 was a typo. I still agree it's too god for $4. It might work as a $5. It's not strictly better than Scout though... if it finds an action on top, it was just a regular Village. You might still have 3 green cards below it that are stuck there for your next draws; Scout would have picked those up (plus just the rearranging ability for when you don't find green).

Remembering that Scout is a dramatically underpowered card, it's also completely different. Scout can draw many great halls and rearrange the other cards to ensure a good draw. New Farming Village can't do either of those things.

The difference between new and old Farming Village is that it gives you more dead cards in hand to discard or trash, and also some nice combos with Baron and Crossroads. It also does worse with Tunnel and Draw to X cards. The effect is going to be very subtle in either case, and I think that Farming Village can afford to have its effect be more pronounced.

If it did prove to be overpowered on Farming Village, I'd give it to Vagrant. I like how almost every $2 card can be really powerful in some situations, so cards like Pearl Diver and Vagrant stick out.
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gman314

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2013, 11:23:23 am »
+1

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.

Wait, what? Making it cheaper so you can open with double Transmute makes it more balanced?!?!?! I'm not sure I understand your logic.


On a completely unrelated note, I think a good change to Fortress would be to put 20 in the supply, and then have the effect be "When you trash this, gain a Fortress, putting it into your hand."
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LastFootnote

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 12:43:19 pm »
0

Transmute is too powerful at 4$.  It's more balanced at 2-3$.

Wait, what? Making it cheaper so you can open with double Transmute makes it more balanced?!?!?! I'm not sure I understand your logic.

I doubt opening double Transmute would be wise.
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Fragasnap

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 12:58:44 pm »
0

Most of the cards I don't like are cards that completely overrun games like Goons and Wharf.
Wharf

+1 Buy
Now and at the start of your next turn: +2 Cards
$5 ACTION - DURATION
The double Laboratory next turn is good enough without giving you a Buy. If you stock up on Wharves (as you probably will), you can probably just play another Wharf anyway, but this nerf would at least slow it down a bit.
Cultist

+2 Cards
You may play a Cultist from your hand.
Otherwise, each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, +3 Cards
$5 ACTION - ATTACK - LOOTER
Cultists chain and then immediately drain the Ruins pile. This way you have to spend an Action for each Ruins given out which makes them much slower at junking decks, but they retain everything else that's so much fun about them.
Fishing Village

+2 Actions
+$1

At the start of your next turn: +1 Action.
$3 ACTION - DURATION
Fishing Village turns a game into a crazy smorgasbord of actions. That's great: That's fine. The problem is that it provides coins both turns which makes it far too safe to piledrive. If it didn't provide that extra coin the next turn it would be brought back in check and much less safe to stack.

...and cards that are too weak to often be useful.
Scout
+2 Actions
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Curses
and
Victory cards into your hand and the rest back in any order.
$4 ACTION
Scout really wants to work in an engine by cleaning off the top of your deck, but it (in most games) only draws junk cards (but not Curses) and doesn't give you anything else. By giving extra actions and cleaning the Curses off the deck, this would probably become a decent card rather than the brunt of Dominion jokes.
Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION
Adventurer has a really hard time being useful. It's great if you can trash most or all of your Coppers, but if you can do that, straight card draw is probably better than Adventurer's sifting. Because it sifts, it's theoretically good in slogs, but then you'll usually just be hitting Coppers. Letting it sift for more Treasures will enable it to actually find Treasures around Coppers.
Throne Room
You may choose an Action card in your hand and play it twice.
Otherwise, +$1.
$4 ACTION
Throne Room has always had issues beyond accountability. The risk associated with drawing Throne Rooms dead is usually too great to justify playing a single action twice. By providing a coin, it will always be at least a terminal Copper if nothing else.

Really, the game I prefer is the one where every Action is worth purchasing more than once every hundred games.
Lighthouse
$3 Action - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Buy
+$1
___
While this is in play, when another player plays an attack card, it doesn't affect you.

The problem I have with Lighthouse is that it isn't terminal. You can piledrive them if you want and they'll never collide. The thing that I like about Moat and Watchtower is that they increase player interaction, but I feel like Lighthouse actually decreases player interaction, because you can't interact with someone who always has a Lighthouse in play. Also, Lighthouse isn't very good in games without attack cards. Therefore, I replaced the +1 Action with something that sometimes makes you want to buy Lighthouse even when there are no attacks: +1 Buy. This version is almost better than Woodcutter, so I felt like I had to increase the price.
I see the reasoning, but I would say that Lighthouse is too good because it gives you a coin in your next hand in addition to not worrying about collision. Providing an Action and Coin the first turn and a Buy the second would balance it out more effectively, I think.

Goons
$6 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
You may trash up to two treasure cards from your hand.
___
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1VP

The attack part of Goons feels slightly out of place and it really hurts when you get your first $6 hand hit by your opponent's Goons. Trashing possibly makes getting an early Goons even more important, but at least it doesn't make your opponents' early Goons buys less likely to happen. Also, it makes buying Coppers for the +VP more attractive (though still often a trap), because it has a built-in way to get rid of them.
I disagree with this method. In any game where getting multiple Goons cards into play is possible, this ability to trash Treasures would make them even more important than they already were since they provide the Treasure thinning that you need. My suggestion to fix them would be to weaken the coin they provide (thusly making it harder to use its extra buys), or make its Attack anti-stack (discouraging stacking them whenever it is possible).
"+$1" or "Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand, and then draws a card"

Familiar - Action, $P

+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player gains a curse.
---------
You may not buy this after another card, and you may not buy another card after buying this one.
I think it would be simpler to drop Familiar down to $2P instead: Possible to miss, but extremely unlikely.

Transmute
Action - $P
(Same effect as before)
---
When you gain this, +1 buy

It significantly lowers the opportunity cost of getting one, and gives a little perk to the treasure trashing option should you choose to take it. Also it's probably the only chance the game has at putting this when gain effect on a card (putting on a card without a potion cost means you can make a run on the pile with enough Highways etc.).
Serious agreement here. It's a brilliant, simple fix to the card.

Marauder
Action/Attack - $4
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile
Each other player gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand

I like the tradeoff between short term and long term.
Sure. No problem here.

Inn
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard any number of cards, +1 action for each card you discard this way
---
When you gain this, you may look through your discard pile (including this), reveal any number of Action cards from it, and shuffle them into your deck.

More variety, and more thematic on top (the more "time" you spend at the inn, the more you can do), and the bottom cuts down on unnecessary shuffling.
I've thought of this too (the discarding cards), but I think it makes Inn too good. The sifting it provides is moderately hard to use, but strong when you can. I mostly don't like Inn's on-gain effect because I rarely feel as though I'm using it effectively.

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

On a completely unrelated note, I think a good change to Fortress would be to put 20 in the supply, and then have the effect be "When you trash this, gain a Fortress, putting it into your hand."
This would be a perfect fix to all of Fortress's problems.
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Watno

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 01:01:09 pm »
0

Minion - $5 Action
Choose one:
+$2
or
Discard your hand and draw 4 cards. Each other player with more than 4 cards in his hand discards random cards until he has only 4 cards inhand.

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Jimmmmm

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 01:12:22 pm »
0

Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION

I tend to dislike most suggested changes to cards, but this seems really solid. I think Adventurer, as the only $6 Kingdom Card in the Base Game, deserves to be better than it is. I'm actually considering playing with this variant from now on.
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 01:22:55 pm »
0

Sea Hag
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player reveals the top card of his deck. If it's an action or treasure, he discards it and gains a Curse, putting it on top of his deck.

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 02:13:42 pm »
0

Adventurer
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 Treasures.
Put 2 into your hand and discard the rest.
$6 ACTION

I tend to dislike most suggested changes to cards, but this seems really solid. I think Adventurer, as the only $6 Kingdom Card in the Base Game, deserves to be better than it is. I'm actually considering playing with this variant from now on.
Yeah, it seems a lot more useful this way while the change is subtle.
You could already make an edge case for it as well with Coppersmith. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 02:32:13 pm »
+1

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 03:15:29 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2013, 02:55:09 pm »
0

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.

Why is it worse for Hermit?  Hermit can trash from hand.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 03:15:12 pm »
0

Farming Village
Action - $4
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure card. Put all the revealed cards in your hand.

It's simpler, more interesting and slightly more thematic.
This makes Farming Village a bit stronger, but only with Trash for benefit. I wouldn't say this pushes it out of being reasonable at $4.

Not only trash for benefit... it's stronger if you have any trashing in general; anytime you would reshuffle after playing Farming Village (bad cards miss the shuffle). Also the following cards: Warehouse; Hamlet; Vault; Secret Chamber; Storeroom; Cellar; Masquerade; Tournament; Baron; Ambassador; Madman. Worse for Hermit though!

I'm not so sure about what I said before about $5... it would be quote a weak $5... but it's still way better than current Farming Village in a fair number of situations.

Why is it worse for Hermit?  Hermit can trash from hand.

Oops. Was just thinking about the trash from discard part.
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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 09:06:22 am »
+1

Scout should cost 2$ or be something like
"+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal the top 2/3 cards from your deck. [...]"

Rebuild should lose that Action. It's strong enough without it, i think. But maybe that's just me hating the card...

Expand and Forge seem too expensive to me. I'd consider them for 6$, but without Quarry, they usually are not bought by anyone when we play.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: "Fixing" cards that you don't like
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 09:47:18 am »
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Wow. Throne Room is already really good; it doesn't need to be better.
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