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[SCSN]

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130508/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1367998252951.txt

In turn 16 I have 2 Counterfeits and 5 HoP's, which I thought would be enough for all the remaining 7 Provinces. However, playing Counterfeit - HoP correctly let's me get the first Province, but then it's trashed (b.c. of the Province buy), yet still played again (b.c. of Counterfeit), however, this time I can't choose a Province, supposedly because the HoP is no longer in play even though I just played it, and after the play it's trashed a second time, this time by Counterfeit:

SheCantSayNo   plays Counterfeit
SheCantSayNo   plays Horn of Plenty
SheCantSayNo   gains Province
SheCantSayNo   trashes Horn of Plenty
SheCantSayNo   plays Horn of Plenty
SheCantSayNo   gains Border Village
SheCantSayNo   gains Horn of Plenty
SheCantSayNo   trashes Horn of Plenty

I think it should let me take a Province both times, and if not that then it shouldn't let me get anything at all the second time, right?

[ftl]

I believe it is correct as it is. Here's what happens.


1. You play counterfeit.
2. ...you play Horn of Plenty. This gives you 8 unique cards in play: 6 previously, Counterfeit, HoP, so you can gain a Province.
3. ...you trash Horn of Plenty. You now have 7 unique cards in play: the same 6, counterfeit, but no HoP, since it's been trashed and no longer in play.
4. ...as per counterfeit, you play the HoP again. You still have the 7 unique cards in play - HoP isn't in play, it's in the trash still. It doesn't get pulled out. You gain something costing up to 7.
5. ...counterfeit tries to trash HoP again. It should fail. I guess that's the bug here - technically, it shouldn't let you trash it a second time since it's already been trashed, though in this case it doesn't matter.

[ftl]

The key is to count how many cards are In Play. Imagine playing the physical game - you have all the cards laid out in front of you. Horn of Plenty isn't in the play area in front of you, it stays in the trash, playing it again doesn't fish it out of there. It still gets played from the trash, but it doesn't go to your in-play area.

[Davio]

I stumbled over this once. HoP needs to be in play to count itself toward the number of uniques, not to be able to gain something.

So you drop from exactly 8 uniques to 7. This is why you can't gain a Province, but a la Feast, you can still gain something as that part is not conditional.

[serakfalcon]

According to the text on Counterfeit, you play it twice BEFORE you trash it...

[Schneau]

According to the text on Counterfeit, you play it twice BEFORE you trash it...

According to the text on Horn of Plenty, you trash it when you gain a Victory card.

[SCSN]

4. ...as per counterfeit, you play the HoP again. You still have the 7 unique cards in play - HoP isn't in play, it's in the trash still. It doesn't get pulled out. You gain something costing up to 7.

This part I don't understand. Why isn't it pulled out of trash? Is it played from the trash? How is that possible? I thought playing a card means by definition that it is moved to your play area and then its effects are applied?

[Davio]

In the original base game, Feast and TR had the same problem.

It was decreed by sir Donald that you could still get effects from cards in the trash, but you can only get the bonus from actually trashing the card once.
So with TR and Feast you can gain two cards. With TR and Mining Village, you can only get the $2 once.

The reasoning was that TR "locks in" on a card, so the text on the card is stored in TR's memory buffer or something like that.

But to make it more confusing, TR on Band of Misfits (choosing Feast the first time) will trash it, play it as Feast and then play it as Feast again, even though it's left play. Donald has mentioned this in the rulebook and it seems that Donald's standard line of reasoning is: Making it work like most people think it does.

Of course, we're not "most people", we're always actively searching for edge cases.

[SCSN]

Okay, thank you. I would have found it much more logical had the card been moved back into play, but if these are the rules then so be it

[serakfalcon]

According to the text on Horn of Plenty, you trash it when you gain a Victory card.

Right... I knew that but I forgot 
Makes sense!

[Stealth Tomato]

In the original base game, Feast and TR had the same problem.

It was decreed by sir Donald that you could still get effects from cards in the trash, but you can only get the bonus from actually trashing the card once.
So with TR and Feast you can gain two cards. With TR and Mining Village, you can only get the $2 once.

The reasoning was that TR "locks in" on a card, so the text on the card is stored in TR's memory buffer or something like that.

But to make it more confusing, TR on Band of Misfits (choosing Feast the first time) will trash it, play it as Feast and then play it as Feast again, even though it's left play. Donald has mentioned this in the rulebook and it seems that Donald's standard line of reasoning is: Making it work like most people think it does.

Of course, we're not "most people", we're always actively searching for edge cases.

The reasoning is actually pretty straightforward (although complex). First, let's define "playing a card":

"Playing a card" is a two-step process.
1. Put the card into play (typically from your hand, but may be from elsewhere if so determined by card text, e.g. Golem).
2. Read and perform each step on the card, in order. If any step cannot be performed, continue on to the next step.

Throne Room reads:
"Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."

So here's how Throne Rooming a Feast works:
1. Choose Feast in your hand.
2. Play Feast.
2.1 Put Feast into play from your hand.
2.2 Trash Feast.
2.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.
3. Play Feast.
3.1 Put Feast into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in your hand)
3.2 Trash Feast. (this is a step of Feast, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in play)
3.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.

[WanderingWinder]

In the original base game, Feast and TR had the same problem.

It was decreed by sir Donald that you could still get effects from cards in the trash, but you can only get the bonus from actually trashing the card once.
So with TR and Feast you can gain two cards. With TR and Mining Village, you can only get the $2 once.

The reasoning was that TR "locks in" on a card, so the text on the card is stored in TR's memory buffer or something like that.

But to make it more confusing, TR on Band of Misfits (choosing Feast the first time) will trash it, play it as Feast and then play it as Feast again, even though it's left play. Donald has mentioned this in the rulebook and it seems that Donald's standard line of reasoning is: Making it work like most people think it does.

Of course, we're not "most people", we're always actively searching for edge cases.

The reasoning is actually pretty straightforward (although complex). First, let's define "playing a card":

"Playing a card" is a two-step process.
1. Put the card into play (typically from your hand, but may be from elsewhere if so determined by card text, e.g. Golem).
2. Read and perform each step on the card, in order. If any step cannot be performed, continue on to the next step.

Throne Room reads:
"Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."

So here's how Throne Rooming a Feast works:
1. Choose Feast in your hand.
2. Play Feast.
2.1 Put Feast into play from your hand.
2.2 Trash Feast.
2.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.
3. Play Feast.
3.1 Put Feast into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in your hand)
3.2 Trash Feast. (this is a step of Feast, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in play)
3.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.

If this is the correct definition, then you would, on the second play of HoP with counterfeit, put the HoP into play, from the trash; ergo, you would still have 8 uniques in play, ergo you would be able to gain province again.

[dondon151]

tl;dr version: putting a card into play and executing its effects are separate events.

[soulnet]

I agree with the explanations and I think the behavior described in the OP is correct, however:

When you play this, gain a card costing up to $1 per differently named card you have in play, counting this. If it’s a Victory card, trash this.

It does say "count this" in some sense. It could be interpreted as HoP is to be counted independently of being in play or not (yes, its a twisted interpretation, I know). Maybe it should say "possibly counting this" or something like that to be more precise.

[Stealth Tomato]

In the original base game, Feast and TR had the same problem.

It was decreed by sir Donald that you could still get effects from cards in the trash, but you can only get the bonus from actually trashing the card once.
So with TR and Feast you can gain two cards. With TR and Mining Village, you can only get the $2 once.

The reasoning was that TR "locks in" on a card, so the text on the card is stored in TR's memory buffer or something like that.

But to make it more confusing, TR on Band of Misfits (choosing Feast the first time) will trash it, play it as Feast and then play it as Feast again, even though it's left play. Donald has mentioned this in the rulebook and it seems that Donald's standard line of reasoning is: Making it work like most people think it does.

Of course, we're not "most people", we're always actively searching for edge cases.

The reasoning is actually pretty straightforward (although complex). First, let's define "playing a card":

"Playing a card" is a two-step process.
1. Put the card into play (typically from your hand, but may be from elsewhere if so determined by card text, e.g. Golem).
2. Read and perform each step on the card, in order. If any step cannot be performed, continue on to the next step.

Throne Room reads:
"Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."

So here's how Throne Rooming a Feast works:
1. Choose Feast in your hand.
2. Play Feast.
2.1 Put Feast into play from your hand.
2.2 Trash Feast.
2.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.
3. Play Feast.
3.1 Put Feast into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in your hand)
3.2 Trash Feast. (this is a step of Feast, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in play)
3.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.

If this is the correct definition, then you would, on the second play of HoP with counterfeit, put the HoP into play, from the trash; ergo, you would still have 8 uniques in play, ergo you would be able to gain province again.

Throne Room: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."
Counterfeit: "When you play this, you may play a Treasure from your hand twice. If you do, trash that Treasure."

Both cards specify your hand as the place from which to play the card. Therefore, the first time, you put it into play from your hand. The second time, you attempt to put it into play from your hand (as a step of Throne Room/Counterfeit), but it's not in your hand so that doesn't work. We skip to the next step (the effect of Horn of Plenty, in this case).


The only situation that appears to be problematic with the above definition is Band of Misfits in the case of a Throne Roomed play that causes it to be trashed on first play. This kind of falls into dead horse territory, but I feel like going there today so here we go.

Here's what you get with TR-BoM as Smithy:
1. Choose Band of Misfits in your hand.
2. Play Band of Misfits.
2.1 Put Band of Misfits into play from your hand.
2.2 Band of Misfits is Smithy until it leaves play.
2.3 +3 Cards
3. Play Band of Misfits.
3.1 Put Band of Misfits into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in your hand.) Band of Misfits is already Smithy, as it has not left play. You do not perform any other effects of Band of Misfits, since it is Smithy.
3.2 +3 Cards

Throne Room has not lost the pointer to the card (it still recognizes the Band of Misfits it has played), it just can't perform certain actions on it (putting it into play) due to its location).

Here's the problem.
1. Choose Band of Misfits in your hand.
2. Play Band of Misfits.
2.1 Put Band of Misfits into play from your hand.
2.2 Band of Misfits is Feast until it leaves play.
2.3 Trash Band of Misfits. Band of Misfits has left play and is no longer Feast.
2.4 Gain a card costing up to $5.
3. Play Band of Misfits.
3.1 Put Band of Misfits into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Band of Misfits is not in your hand.)
3.2 Band of Misfits is Feast, even though it has left play.
3.3 Trash Band of Misfits. Band of Misfits is no longer Feast.
3.4 Gain a card costing up to $5.

It seems like we need an additional clarification of this ruleset to address this situation, which is difficult to create without causing contradictions. Perhaps it could be done as an errata to Band of Misfits:

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves is discarded from play."

Now we can reconcile everything with a simple rule: The memory buffer for cards in the Trash lasts exactly as long as there is an active pointer to them. Band of Misfits in the Trash remembers it is Feast as long as Throne Room is still using it, but as soon as it isn't, it forgets it is Feast and becomes Band of Misfits again.

[WanderingWinder]

In the original base game, Feast and TR had the same problem.

It was decreed by sir Donald that you could still get effects from cards in the trash, but you can only get the bonus from actually trashing the card once.
So with TR and Feast you can gain two cards. With TR and Mining Village, you can only get the $2 once.

The reasoning was that TR "locks in" on a card, so the text on the card is stored in TR's memory buffer or something like that.

But to make it more confusing, TR on Band of Misfits (choosing Feast the first time) will trash it, play it as Feast and then play it as Feast again, even though it's left play. Donald has mentioned this in the rulebook and it seems that Donald's standard line of reasoning is: Making it work like most people think it does.

Of course, we're not "most people", we're always actively searching for edge cases.

The reasoning is actually pretty straightforward (although complex). First, let's define "playing a card":

"Playing a card" is a two-step process.
1. Put the card into play (typically from your hand, but may be from elsewhere if so determined by card text, e.g. Golem).
2. Read and perform each step on the card, in order. If any step cannot be performed, continue on to the next step.

Throne Room reads:
"Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."

So here's how Throne Rooming a Feast works:
1. Choose Feast in your hand.
2. Play Feast.
2.1 Put Feast into play from your hand.
2.2 Trash Feast.
2.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.
3. Play Feast.
3.1 Put Feast into play from your hand. (this is a step of Throne Room, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in your hand)
3.2 Trash Feast. (this is a step of Feast, and cannot be performed because Feast is not in play)
3.3 Gain a card costing up to $5.

If this is the correct definition, then you would, on the second play of HoP with counterfeit, put the HoP into play, from the trash; ergo, you would still have 8 uniques in play, ergo you would be able to gain province again.

Throne Room: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."
Counterfeit: "When you play this, you may play a Treasure from your hand twice. If you do, trash that Treasure."

Both cards specify your hand as the place from which to play the card. Therefore, the first time, you put it into play from your hand. The second time, you attempt to put it into play from your hand (as a step of Throne Room/Counterfeit), but it's not in your hand so that doesn't work. We skip to the next step (the effect of Horn of Plenty, in this case).

By any definition, you can only get an effect of a card if you play it.
By your definition, part of playing a card is putting it into play.
So if you can't play a card not from your hand (though I disagree with your interpretation of the counterfeit wording, which would mean it would never work as intended), then by your definition, you shouldn't get any effect.

I know how it is supposed to work (which I don't think is clear from any printed rule), I just don't think your definition gets that point across.

Regardless, it doesn't matter.

[Davio]

If this topic goes on long enough, we'll start doubting the definition of a single card.
"Play a card? I finally understand playing, but what exactly is a card?"