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Author Topic: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?  (Read 2540 times)

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ddubois

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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/14/game-20111014-025049-a94b2d54.html

The guy is level 40-something, so he must have had a plan... I guess he envisioned Hoard into that turn 13 ahead of time, but... How the heck can such a gross sacrifice of overall card efficiency be correct?  Is there some specific logic surrounding reshuffles I simply don't understand?  Under what circumstances could Courtyard as my $4 be right?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 12:43:25 pm »
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You ignored Native Village/Bridge, and Courtyard is really good with big money. Like really, really good.

play2draw

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 12:49:36 pm »
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Courtyard manages money better than many other cards. If you draw 4 golds, put one back on top. If you draw a total of $7, put a gold back on top. If you draw 5 silvers, put a silver back on top.
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DStu

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 01:22:31 pm »
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You ignored Native Village/Bridge, and Courtyard is really good with big money. Like really, really good.

Yepp. If I remember correctly, BM-Courtyard beats BM-Smithy. But loses to BM-Envoy. Everything quite close of course. And that's the simulöator, that prob. is not perfect in putting cards back.
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DG

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 02:03:18 pm »
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There a lot of reasonable decks that you can make with courtyard+action or courtyard+money. Your opponent also tried out a hoard +trader combo where he bought a green card to gain an extra gold, then trashed it with the trader for a lot of silver. The deck could then soak a lot of duchies so your opponent bought them. It's alright, doesn't look fantastic, and his deck progressed at a modest pace. The (almost) interesting feature is that he took courtyard/silver to look for the hoard, then bought the trader when the hoard didn't immediately arrive, so his draws could certainly have been better.

Any time you've only bought two provinces by turn 19 though, with no attacks, there's no point asking why any money strategy has beaten you. Pure money would have beaten you. You mixed too many opposing strategies together.
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Deadlock39

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 02:14:21 pm »
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It has already been stated multiple times, but Courtyard+BM is a pretty strong baseline.  Don't be fooled by Courtyard's $2 price tag.

Geronimoo

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 02:47:13 pm »
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I saw your end deck contained 4 Villages and nothing really to use them with. Those could have been silvers.
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michaeljb

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 03:10:15 pm »
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Well no Attacks were purchased by either of you, yet it still took panda until turn 18 to buy the fourth Province, and your final score after 19 turns was 26 points. Considering neither of you was building a megaturn deck, that's not in anyway impressive speed for the scores. The only counterargument I see to that is panda playing Hoard and going green earlier changed the normal pacing of the game (I've seen this happen a few times with Duchy/Duke), but I would say that neither of you played Hoard particularly well.
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Toskk

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 03:52:17 pm »
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I saw your end deck contained 4 Villages and nothing really to use them with. Those could have been silvers.

That was my thought as well.. plus, the Bridge / Silver opening isn't particularly strong anyway.. Take a look at how Councilroom.com rates Bridge / Silver vs. Silver / Courtyard:

Silver / Courtyard: 0.635 ± 1.076
Bridge / Silver: -0.098 ± 0.910

The Courtyard + Big Money strategy is a pretty solid one, and Panda looked to do a reasonable job of sticking to it.. his treasure totals were much higher than yours by end-game.

As an aside.. I think I probably would have gone Trader / Courtyard..
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Karrow

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 05:54:30 pm »
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From the simulator:  Big money + courtyard against straight big money ultimate gives a 19 turn average  75% win / 19% loose / 6% draw.

I can't see the log at work, so I can't say if you just had bad luck.  But a courtyard win on turn 19 is no surprise.
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ddubois

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 08:06:59 pm »
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You ignored Native Village/Bridge, and Courtyard is really good with big money. Like really, really good.

I generally avoid Native Village in favor of villages that give me the card right away.  I have a suspicion there's a deficiency in my play when both those cards are available, in that there is an opportunity for a deck I don't fully understand.

I saw your end deck contained 4 Villages and nothing really to use them with. Those could have been silvers.
I had bridge/bridge/courtyard, and I did conflict.
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biopower

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 08:12:56 pm »
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I generally avoid Native Village in favor of villages that give me the card right away.  I have a suspicion there's a deficiency in my play when both those cards are available, in that there is an opportunity for a deck I don't fully understand.

Native Village + Bridge lets you set up for a megaturn in a way that normal villages can't; spend the first number of turns buying as many bridges and native villages as possible, almost always drawing a card onto your mat. With multiple bridges and native villages on your mat, you can get a megaturn because bridges are obviously much much better when played in quantities (I'm sure you know about KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge).

Generally, Native Village is good only when you build a deck around it, and then it's better as an enabler for megaturns than as a source of actions for a draw engine.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 08:15:26 pm by biopower »
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rinkworks

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 09:00:54 pm »
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NV/Bridge is nigh unbeatable except in a mirror match.  The hardest part is having the nerve to stay the course when your opponent starts buying Provinces, and you haven't bought a thing and in fact are still barely scraping together $4 hands.  You have to be very strict:  ALWAYS put a card on the mat, NEVER buy anything but Bridges and NV's, the one exception being a Silver (or Copper) if your total deck $ falls below $3ish.  But then, once you pop that megaturn, you can usually buy out all the remaining Provinces -- however many there are! -- and scarf up a bunch of Duchies, too, to end the game.  Got to be careful your opponent doesn't 3-pile you before you can pull the trigger, though, which is a real hazard when you've eaten up all the NVs and Bridges already.
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DG

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 09:58:41 pm »
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You're getting a bit of grief in the replies here so please don't take it too personally. I will however put a few more detailed suggestions your way since you don't seem to have grasped it yet.

- If you were trying to make a drawing deck using multiple buys to get cheap drawing cards, why didn't you follow it through fully?
- If you weren't building a drawing deck then why did you take bridges for multiple purchases? If the extra purchases are not important then save the terminal action for something good like a rabble, skip the villages entirely, and accept single purchases of good cards.
- If you were trying to get extra gold from a bridge/hoard combination then why didn't you get the hoard early when you had the chance? The game was lost by the time the hoard was bought.
- What was the trader doing, an experiment maybe? It was always going to create silver too late and be a bad use of time and hand space. Getting more out of the hoard was always going to be better than using both a trader and hoard.
- How were you planning to link the bridges to the villages when both the hoards and trader were expanding the deck with treasure? Buying more villages was an overpriced solution.
- Were you aware that the labs were largely ineffective as the deck had little value to draw and the courtyard worked against them?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 10:03:16 pm by DG »
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michaeljb

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2011, 12:16:41 am »
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\But a courtyard win on turn 19 is no surprise.

hmm, for some reason I was thinking Courtyard should put it around 15 or 16 turn average...I guess the "turns to 4 Provinces" metric doesn't properly account for Duchy purchases but oh well.  ::)

On another note entirely, I think the Trader may have been a bit of "ooh, shiny new card" that gets a lot of us  :P
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Anon79

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2011, 01:33:06 am »
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NV/Bridge is nigh unbeatable except in a mirror match.  The hardest part is having the nerve to stay the course when your opponent starts buying Provinces, and you haven't bought a thing and in fact are still barely scraping together $4 hands.  You have to be very strict:  ALWAYS put a card on the mat, NEVER buy anything but Bridges and NV's, the one exception being a Silver (or Copper) if your total deck $ falls below $3ish.
Anecdotally, I find that usually I need to pick up a card from the mat ONCE, VERY EARLY, when I go NV/Bridge. By very early I mean like the second time you play NV, provided you didn't put an Estate on the mat; I often seem to run out of $$ otherwise. Am I playing it wrong, or are other people experiencing the same thing?
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rinkworks

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Re: What the heck just happened ---- How did I lose to Courtyard/Silver?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2011, 01:59:57 am »
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I basically always need to buy Silver or Copper once or twice at some point before the megaturn.  That's probably a better move than losing tempo (and decreasing the chance your next NV will hit a Bridge) by pulling Treasure off the mat at any point.  But this is just a guess, and I could well be wrong.
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