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pst

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Getting an early Familiar
« on: May 03, 2013, 05:17:39 am »
+12

[This topic is taken from here. ]

So you want to get an early Familiar? Probably your first two buys are Potion and something else.  Maybe that other card is Silver, maybe something even better. This table shows you your chances of getting that Familiar in turn 3 or 4 for some choices.

Cardt3t4t3+t4
Squire15.15%15.15%30.30%
Squire + draw18.94%18.94%37.88%
Squire + Hermit15.15%41.67%56.82%
Silver32.70%32.70%65.40%
Poor House32.83%32.83%65.66%
Lighthouse30.05%35.73%65.78%
Sage39.77%27.15%66.92%
double Hermit0.00%68.18%68.18%
Moat38.51%38.51%77.02%
Steward39.65%39.65%79.29%
double Watchtower98.48%

Poor House is an example of a card that guarantees you enough money if you draw it with the Potion. The same goes for Beggar and Secret Chamber. So these are obviously slightly better than Silver.

Fishing Village is like Lighthouse ($1+$1) and turns out to be even better.

I've included the alternative way to get Familiar from Squire without a Potion. The first line for Squire is for when you get it with a trasher like Chapel that can trash Squire if you draw them together. The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

The idea can be improved with Squire + Hermit for easier finding of that Squire.  In this case I assume you buy an additional turn 3 Squire if possible so your turn 4 Hermit can trash that one even if your first Squire is at the bottom of your deck. But with Hermit available (and a 4+3 opening) a much better opening is double Hermit and buy the Squire at turn 3! This only fails if you can't afford the Squire at turn 3 or if you don't get a Hermit in turn 4. If there is Watchtower and Squire then double Watchtower is a crazy good opening. With Watchtower in your hand buy a Squire that you immediately trash, and then topdeck the Familiar. If you get Watchtower without enough money in your first hand, then play it. The given probability is the probability that you get at least one Familiar by turn 4. It only fails if both of your Watchtowers miss the shuffle.

Moat is like Shanty Town, drawing two cards. Always play it.

And finally the best one-card option I've found is Steward. It is really good because you can use it for money if drawn with Potion, and for cards to get that Potion otherwise.
You always play Steward for cards if playing it for money isn't enough to buy a Familiar.

What else is there to say? I've assumed other players don't attack you or mess with you otherwise in a way that disturbs your chances.

I've done this by looking at all 12! permutations of your cards after your first two buys. I haven't looked at drawers like Warehouse when it's possible to draw beyond those 12 cards in turn 4. It's especially complicated since you can draw a card gained in turn 3 then.
There are also several cards that can't draw that much but that I still haven't considered anyway. Maybe I'll extend this later. Maybe someone else will.

Here is the same table again, but with number of permutations (out of those 12!) instead of percentages.

Cardt3t4t3+t4
Squire72,576,00072,576,000145,152,000
Squire + draw90,720,00090,720,000181,440,000
Squire + Hermit72,576,000199,584,000272,160,000
Silver156,643,200156,643,200313,286,400
Poor House157,248,000157,248,000314,496,000
Lighthouse143,942,400171,158,400315,100,800
Sage190,512,000130,032,000320,544,000
double Hermit0326,592,000326,592,000
Moat184,464,000184,464,000368,928,000
Steward189,907,200189,907,200379,814,400
double Watchtower471,744,000

Edit: Corrected Steward strategy. Added Moat/Shanty Town and double Watchtower.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 10:32:54 am by pst »
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pst

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 05:34:24 am »
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So did I do this correctly? I've double checked my first results, including Silver vs. Lighthouse, as well as my best result Steward, so these should be correct. As for the Squire options I just programmed them and ran them without doublechecking them, so possibly I've made an error there.

How did you come up with those numbers? I tried to run it in a break (okay, no sophisticated way of making sure there wasn't a mistake), but what I got was that:
The only way for FV(or equivalently lighthouse) to help you is if it is in your t3 hand *and* your t4 hand is C-C-E-E-P. The chances of this happening are 5 in 88.
The only way for FV to hurt you is if you have FV-C-E-E-P on turn 3 OR 4 (instead of having the silver). The chances of this happening are 7 in 66.
Ergo, you lose more than you gain, and your overall chances of getting familiar on t3-t4 decrease by 13 in 264, or a hair under 5%.

Anyone see a mistake with my math?

I don't know how you came up with those probs so I can't point out where the error is. It's easy to make blunders though, so that's why I sticked to looking at all permutations one by one. Somewhat dumb but simple! Here's my reasoning when doublechecking this result though:

X is the extra card (Silver or Fishing Village/Lighthouse).

Fishing Village is better when your t3 hand contains X and your t4 hand is CCPEE.
You can pick the two Coppers in that hand in C(7,2) ways and the two Estates in C(3,2) ways. And then X must be among the 5 cards in your t3 hand (and not in the 2 cards left), so you get C(7,2) * C(3,2) * 5/7 = 21*3*5/7 = 45 cases.

Fishing Village is worse when your t3 hand contains XPCEE. There 7 Coppers to choose from and C(3,2) Estates.
7*3 = 21. It's also worse when your t4 hand contains this, so all in all 42 cases.

So the net gain is 45-42 = 3 cases. For each "case" I can actually permute the five needed cards in any way, and the seven other cards in any way. 3*5!*7! =  1814400 which is the difference I have.
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Davio

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 05:36:55 am »
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How about Shanty Town/Moat?

I've always thought Shanty Town was somewhat comparable to Silver in being able to afford Familiar as a hand of CPSEE can still net 2 Coppers unless your last Estate is badly placed and a hand of CCPSE will only fail if it draws exactly 2 Estates.

Why I liked Shanty Town better is because of the added cycling once you get that Familiar.
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lespeutere

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 05:42:39 am »
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With Steward but no Potion in your turn 3 hand you should draw cards if you have 4 Coppers, otherwise not.

Why?
If I have already 4 coppers in hand and draw 2 cards of my remaining 7, there is a bigger chance for drawing a fifth copper of my remaining 3 (leaving 2$P for t4) than for drawing that single potion. Maybe this is too intuitive a question to hold against your statistics, but I'd like to know, nonetheless.
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Awaclus

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2013, 05:46:33 am »
+1

I'd love to know the statistics for Storeroom and Courtyard.
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Qvist

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2013, 06:10:23 am »
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I'd love to know the statistics for Storeroom and Courtyard.

This. These should be the strongest ones.

SCSN

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2013, 06:18:35 am »
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With Steward but no Potion in your turn 3 hand you should draw cards if you have 4 Coppers, otherwise not.

Why?
If I have already 4 coppers in hand and draw 2 cards of my remaining 7, there is a bigger chance for drawing a fifth copper of my remaining 3 (leaving 2$P for t4) than for drawing that single potion. Maybe this is too intuitive a question to hold against your statistics, but I'd like to know, nonetheless.

Because you're very unlikely to get a Familiar on T4 in that case as that would require 2 of your 3 Estates (which are all still in the deck) to be on the bottom, which is less likely than your Potion being one of the  two cards you'd draw with Steward.

This is different when your hand is Steward + 3 Coppers + Estate, as now only 2 Estates remain in your deck, so that one Estate + 1 Copper on the bottom would also get you a T4 familiar. Now drawing 2 cards has a higher probability of ruining a T4 familiar than getting a T3 one.
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Qvist

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2013, 06:23:27 am »
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pst, how did you calculate Steward?
Let's say you have the order of cards is SEECCPECCCCC.
Either way you don't get a Familiar in turn 3, but if you can buy a Familiar in turn 4 depends on what you choose, but this is knowledge you don't have.
With SEECCPECCCCC you shouldn't draw, but it could also be SEECCECCCCCP where you should definitely choose to draw.

Davio

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2013, 06:29:30 am »
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I suppose you could just enumerate all possibilities (with draw and $2) and work out backwards what you should have chosen.

So you start from SEECC and enumerate all possibilities for drawing 2 and getting $2 (or even trashing) and decide whether there are more good results in drawing or not drawing and pick that as the default move.
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Fabian

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2013, 06:36:24 am »
+1

A note about Courtyard is that it's not as good as comments here would indicate, as often when you get Familiar on turn 4, you will have triggered a reshuffle already, which is kinda ugly (all of Potion, Familiar and Courtyard won't be in your deck).
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SirPeebles

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2013, 06:36:34 am »
+1

Opening Watchtower/Watchtower on a Squire board and you're guaranteed a Familiar, unless attacked or both Watchtowers miss the reshuffle.

Edit:  Oh, one other failure is if you draw WEEEC on T3 and then CCCCC on T4.  But CCCCC on T3 and WEEEC on T4 still gets a Familiar, since you can play your Watchtower T4 and know you will draw another Watchtower and a Copper.

On third thought, if you draw WEEEC on T3, then play Watchtower.  Either you draw WC now and get your familiar, or you draw CC and guarantee that your T4 hand is WCCCC.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:50:17 am by SirPeebles »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2013, 07:07:01 am »
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By the way, the double Watchtower opening has a 98.48% chance of getting your a familiar before the next shuffle (excluding player interaction)

The better question, in fact, is what the likelihood of getting two Familiars by the second reshuffle is.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 07:42:12 am by SirPeebles »
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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2013, 07:20:23 am »
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The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw. Masquerade draws 2 and trashes, and is probably the best bet here, though Masq + Potion might have an even higher probability.
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pst

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2013, 07:22:59 am »
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pst, how did you calculate Steward?

Without any secret knowledge, but just playing as I wrote:
Quote
With Steward but no Potion in your turn 3 hand you should draw cards if you have 4 Coppers, otherwise not.

(All other choices are obvious.)
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Qvist

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2013, 07:24:54 am »
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pst, how did you calculate Steward?

Without any secret knowledge, but just playing as I wrote:
Quote
With Steward but no Potion in your turn 3 hand you should draw cards if you have 4 Coppers, otherwise not.

(All other choices are obvious.)

Ah, I thought this was the result of the computation. It was rather the assumption for your computation. Now I understood it.

pst

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2013, 07:59:16 am »
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Forager doesn't draw.
Oops, thanks. I'm fixing that in the OP. I'm still so unused to DA that when I happened to get that wrong first I wouldn't notice it later.
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AHoppy

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2013, 08:19:39 am »
+1

The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw.
if you trash your overgrown estate it does

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2013, 08:42:53 am »
+1

The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw.
if you trash your overgrown estate it does

Nope. Overgrown Estate draws, Forager does not.
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Awaclus

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2013, 08:45:33 am »
+2

The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw.
if you trash your overgrown estate it does

Nope. Overgrown Estate draws, Forager does not.
Actually, you draw, the cards do not.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2013, 08:47:34 am »
+2

Actually, you draw, the cards do not.

But, in Soviet Russia...
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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2013, 08:59:19 am »
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The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw.
if you trash your overgrown estate it does

Nope. Overgrown Estate draws, Forager does not.
Actually, you draw, the cards do not.
either way, it still increases the chance of getting a familiar.  Just never count on it...

Awaclus

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 09:01:20 am »
+1

The better line "Squire + draw" is for when your trasher draws a card first (Forager, Rats, Upgrade, Junk Dealer). Both of these are much worse than Potion + Silver.

Forager doesn't draw.
if you trash your overgrown estate it does

Nope. Overgrown Estate draws, Forager does not.
Actually, you draw, the cards do not.
either way, it still increases the chance of getting a familiar.  Just never count on it...
No, it doesn't, because the card you're trashing should be a Squire, not an Overgrown Estate. Unless you went for Potion/Forager, which isn't a great opening on a Familiar board.
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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 09:48:30 am »
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I find it amusing that the combos that do better than Silver/Potion require either:

One of two three-card combos (1 in what, 1000 games?);
Opening Potion/X anyway.

----

I think a better question is what is the likelihood of getting any $5 or $6 attack card using Squire and a trasher, as opposed to opening Silver/X.  Having Squire/[Hermit|Watchtower]/[any $5/$6 attack] on the board is many times more likely than Squire/trasher/Familiar.
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pst

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2013, 10:34:19 am »
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How about Shanty Town/Moat?

Added!
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pst

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Re: Getting an early Familiar
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2013, 10:35:35 am »
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By the way, the double Watchtower opening has a 98.48% chance of getting your a familiar before the next shuffle (excluding player interaction)

Thanks, right! And you can topdeck them to boot. (Added to the table.)
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