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kazztawdal

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"Monsters" Fan Expansion
« on: October 14, 2011, 12:43:23 am »
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Hey, guys.  Like most of you, I love messing around with card designs and combos.  I've had a lot of ideas like these bouncing around in my head, and these aren't the most balanced suggestions in the universe (especially Ogre, dear Lord), but I thought I'd finally get the ball rolling and release something of a fan expansion.

This one is called "Monsters" because it's got monsters n'stuff.  It's heavily based on Attacks and really messing with the other players.

See what you think, gimme feedback, tell me what sucks and what doesn't.  I promise not to get defensive :3

Version 1 has a lot of stupid problems.  Version 2 will be posted here soon!

--

Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Action

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.

Comment: a fairly soft defense against Attacks, but when your opponent is being aggressive, it can turn things to your advantage, especially if you've got several Town Watches out.

edit: Worthless card outside the expansion.  needs significant change.

--

Goblin - $3
Action - Attack

+2 Coins

Each other player discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.

Comment: swingy, but i think cheap Attacks like this should be swingy.

edit: this is just Cutpurse++.  don't know what i was thinking.

--

Warg - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Action
+1 Coin

The player to your left chooses one:
You draw two cards or he discards one card.

Comment: if chained together, Warg gets upsetting in a hurry.

edit: I had a good idea once, then I forgot it and made this card instead.  I need to carry a notepad with me.

--

Call to Arms - $4
Action

Gain an Attack card from the Supply.  Play it immediately.

Comment: a speedy way to hit your opponent exactly how and when you want.  the "Attack" designation is almost purely a disadvantage; this changes that somewhat.

edit: only good inside the expansion or if the board happens to work for it.

--

Catapult - $4
Action

Choose an Attack card in your hand.  Play it three times, then trash it.

Comment: a cheap Attack-only King's Court.  let's be honest, you're only going to see that Attack a few times per game.  you may as well use it once to devastating effect, eh?  eh?

edit: again, completely Attack-dependent

--

Necromancer - $4
Action

The player to your left may trash a card.
If he does, you may gain that card and put it on top of your deck.
If not, you may gain a card from the Trash pile and put it on top of your deck.

Comment: it's pretty unlikely that the opponent will let you into the Trash pile if there's something good in there, but he has to lose cards (possibly to you) to keep you out.  note that this is not an Attack.

edit: on second thought, this is really underpowered without a lot of help from other cards...

--

Demon Slayer - $5
Action - Reaction

Action:
+2 Coin
Each other player discards an Attack card from his hand or reveals a hand with no Attack cards.

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this from your hand.  If you do, that Attack card is trashed.  (It may still affect you.)

Comment: a hardcore defense to keep enemy Attacks from running rampant.  the Reaction makes them think twice.  forcing them to trash the Attack is pretty rough, potentially overpowered.  i'll have to think on that.

edit: attack-dependent

--

Ogre - $5
Action - Attack

The player to your left may trash a card from his hand.  If he does, the player to his left may trash two cards.  If he does, the player to his left may trash three cards.  This continues clockwise until a player refuses to trash any cards.  That player discards his hand.

Comment: in a two-player game, if you're willing to trash two cards, your opponent may be forced to either discard his hand or trash four cards total.  pretty crazy card, certain to be a gamechanger.  (perhaps also the dumbest thing i've ever come up with)

edit: i don't hate the idea, but i don't know why the trashing had to scale up so much.  i'll think on this.

--

Haunted Village - $5
Action - Attack

+2 Actions
+1 Card

Each other player gains a Curse card.

Comment: a bewitched village.  is this strictly better than Witch?  it might be.  if so, add "Discard a card from your hand." after the +1 Card

edit: overpowered

--

Temple - $5
Victory

Worth 1 VP for each Temple in your deck.

Comment: Competing for these is a waste of time, but getting them all will win you the game.  I'm almost positive something exactly like this has been suggested before.

edit: yeah, Donald X already rejected this idea.  I probably shouldn't suggest putting it back in the game.

--

Infernal Chest - $6
Treasure

Worth $4

When you play this, reveal the top card of your deck. 
If the revealed card is a Victory card, gain a Curse.
If not, trash the revealed card.

Comment: a deal with the devil.  it could actually help you, if you prepare for it; it can trash Coppers and Curses just as well as your other stuff.

edit: swingy and potentially deck-ruining, but that is sort of the point.  needs something.

--

Sorceror - $6
Action - Attack

+2 Cards

Each other player discards the top two cards of his deck, then places 2 Confusion cards on top of his deck.

Setup: Add a pile of 8/12/16/20 Confusion cards to the Supply, based on the number of players.

--

Confusion - $0
Action - Confusion

Return this card to the Supply.

Comment: Confusion cards are an old idea Donald X had, but I've changed it a bit.  I think it should take up space like Curses, but have an inherent method of temporary disposal.  Sorceror can really gunk you up; it'd be interesting to see him in play.

--

The Manticore - $7
Action - Duration

Each other player discards all Victory cards from his hand, or reveals a hand with no Victory cards.

While this card is in play, if another player plays an Action, you may discard this card.  If you do, the played Action is discarded without effect.

Comment: The Manticore sets up cards like Warg very nicely, keeping your opponents from simply discarding Victory cards to them.  More importantly, it turns you into King-of-the-Castle, deciding which Actions you'll allow to be played.  it doesn't currently have the "Attack" label, but if it did I think it'd need a small buff (in light of Demon Slayer and despite Call to Arms).  the card is not at all compatible with TR/KC, unlike most of the set's cards.

edit: nah.  the Manticore is just gone.  let's forget about it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:52:47 am by kazztawdal »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 02:07:20 am »
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Town Watch, Call to Arms, Catapult and Demon Slayer don't do anything if there are no attacks in the game.  Even Moat can be (admittedly very rarely) beneficial without attacks.

Quote
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack

+2 Coins

Each other player discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.

Unless I'm missing something, this is (almost, almost, almost - the one counterexample I can think of is with HoP. Or, I suppose Contraband. But very rarely) strictly better than Cutpurse, for $1 less.

Having said that, I personally like the idea of any card that punishes Big Money.

Quote
Warg - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Action
+1 Coin

The player to your left chooses one:
You draw two cards or he discards one card.

I think it's an interesting idea. Of course, attacks that only affect one person are frowned upon. I'm not sure what a solution could be for this one. If it affects everyone, who chooses? And if they each choose for themselves it would probably wind up being over- or under-powered with more or less players.
Also, I feel like it should cost more than $3. It's either better than a Lab, or a non-terminal half-Militia which stacks. Well, without the coins. But still.

Quote
Necromancer - $4
Action

The player to your left may trash a card.
If he does, you may gain that card and put it on top of your deck.
If not, you may gain a card from the Trash pile and put it on top of your deck.

If there's no other trashing in the game, this would be a pointless buy, as all it will do is slim your opponent's deck.
In fact, it's only ever going to be reasonable if there's a decent trash-for-benefit card, and even then you're more likely to provide your opponent with free trashing than gain any real benefit.

But from your edit, you already know this.

Quote
Ogre - $5
Action - Attack

The player to your left may trash a card from his hand.  If he does, the player to his left may trash two cards.  If he does, the player to his left may trash three cards.  This continues clockwise until a player refuses to trash any cards.  That player discards his hand.

I think this is an interesting idea, to some extent. However, it's too easy to get your opponent into a pin if with a few of these and a some decent card-drawing. If you've drawn your whole deck and you play one of these, there's nothing your opponent can do to save his hand. Then you just buy some more Coppers for next turn.

Quote
Haunted Village - $5
Action - Attack

+2 Actions
+1 Card

Each other player gains a Curse card.

No it's not strictly better than Witch, but it's strictly better than Familiar, which is generally considered to be better than Witch. Actually, it's way, way, way, better than Witch. Compare Village to Moat.

Quote
Temple - $5
Victory

Worth 1 VP for each Temple in your deck.

Yes it has been mentioned before, in fact it was Donald's original idea for Duke. Can't be bother finding the links, look in Secret History of Intrigue for the Duke thing.

Quote
Infernal Chest - $6
Treasure

Worth $4

When you play this, reveal the top card of your deck. 
If the revealed card is a Victory card, gain a Curse.
If not, trash the revealed card.

I think this could be interesting. Bought early, it's likely to hit Coppers and self-inflicted Curses. Late in the game you're not going to get much more use out of whatever the card is. However, I feel like it would probably end up trashing too many of your wanted cards.

Quote
Sorceror - $6
Action - Attack

+2 Cards

Each other player discards the top two cards of his deck, then places 2 Confusion cards on top of his deck.

Setup: Add a pile of 8/12/16/20 Confusion cards to the Supply, based on the number of players.

Could be interesting. Confusion cards would play almost like Islands in terms of getting them out of your deck. The obvious comparison here is Sea Hag, although you're (almost) guaranteed to be able to get rid of one if you want to. Essentially a Confusion costs you a spot in your hand and an action.

Quote
The Manticore - $7
Action - Duration

Each other player discards all Victory cards from his hand, or reveals a hand with no Victory cards.

While this card is in play, if another player plays an Action, you may discard this card.  If you do, the played Action is discarded without effect.

In the absence of cards like Warg, Torturer, dual-type action cards, or discard-for-benefit, this becomes incredibly weak. If you look at the other $7s, they can be brilliant in just about any game. The reaction is like a Moat that protects everyone from the attack, which is not something you generally want to do, and it hurts the attacker. And reactions that hurt the attacker are frowned upon as then attacks won't be bought, and neither will this card.


Anyway. I like the theme, and some of the ideas are cool, and at least worth some discussion. But most of them need work. If you're serious about coming up with good card ideas, playtest them. And give this a read if you haven't already. But keep the ideas coming! :)
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 09:41:19 am »
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Yep.  You can kind of tell, I thought about most of these cards twice, and then posted the list.

The biggest problems that I need to work on immediately:

1. Most of the cards only make sense in the context of the expansion.

2. I completely forgot, or ignored, a few existing cards (despite being an avid player).  I woke up this morning thinking "Oh God... Goblin is just a better Cutpurse!  I'm an idiot!"  In my defense, Cutpurse is eminently forgettable.

3. Attacks really shouldn't just mess with the poor jerk to your left.

I won't give up, though.  Hefty, destructive and wanton revisions are coming.  Thanks for the feedback.
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rinkworks

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 09:54:00 am »
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Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration
+1 Action
While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.

Love the idea.  We could use more duration cards that activate on attacks like this.  I like that the defense is soft, as the attacker, aware of this card being out, may still want to play it.  That differentiates the way this card plays from Lighthouse from the attacking side as well as the defending side.

However, the softness of the defense makes it compare quite poorly to Lighthouse, a hard defense with a strictly superior action effect.  True, for some weak attacks, you'd *rather* take the hit and get +1 Card, rather than stopping them completely.  But Lighthouse will be preferable as a defense most of the time and as an action all of the time.

So I would add a little something to the action component, such as making it any of these:

  • +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$1 (making it slightly better than Lighthouse's action component)
  • +1 Card, +1 Action
  • +2 Actions

Quote
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack
+2 Coins
Each other player discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.
Comment: swingy, but i think cheap Attacks like this should be swingy.

This is strictly superior to Cutpurse (except in a couple of contrived and unlikely scenarios one might fabricate as a puzzle) at a cheaper price.  I think $5 might even be too weak for this:  the saving grace of Cutpurse, which is brutal in the early game, is that its power wears off.  This one would start out just as brutally and usually get WORSE as the game goes on.

Quote
Warg - $3
Action - Attack
+1 Action
+1 Coin
The player to your left chooses one:
You draw two cards or he discards one card.

That's a really interesting idea.  It does seem like it was made for chaining, so I think it's one of the rare attacks I agree is best as a non-terminal.  The +Coin makes a lot of sense, too:  most likely the opponent will choose to discard on the first couple of plays of this card.  The +Coin keeps the card from being useless to the player if he doesn't have any more to chain.

However, I don't like that it only hits the player on the left.  While not a targetted attack, which is a good thing, I don't like that a 3p game might be decided by seating order if one player decides to rush Wargs on a board that the other two players agree is bad for it.

How about "Every other player may discard a card.  If any do not, +2 Cards."?  Seating order still matters here:  Opponent #1 may not want to discard a card, but he might think sacrificing a card is worth it to keep the attacker from drawing any more.  But then if Opponent #2 does not discard, Opponent #1 will have discarded for nothing.

On the other hand, if Opponent #1 does not discard, Opponent #2 never will.

I'm not sure if this is a desirable gameplay flow either, but I do think it's worth exploring ideas like this that attempt to hit every player.

Quote
Call to Arms - $4
Action
Gain an Attack card from the Supply.  Play it immediately.
Comment: a speedy way to hit your opponent exactly how and when you want.  the "Attack" designation is almost purely a disadvantage; this changes that somewhat.

Great in a kingdom without Attack cards, but about 20% of kingdoms with this card in it will not, and then it's a dead pile.

Quote
Catapult - $4
Action
Choose an Attack card in your hand.  Play it three times, then trash it.
Comment: a cheap Attack-only King's Court.  let's be honest, you're only going to see that Attack a few times per game.  you may as well use it once to devastating effect, eh?  eh?

Another really interesting idea that suffers from the same problem.  I suppose if these are in an attack-heavy set, and the intention is to play with them together, it's fine.  But it does sort of break down the "any 10 cards work" design principle of Dominion a little bit.  So I guess, worth doing if that's what you want, but it's a weakness it's good to be aware of.

Quote
Necromancer - $4
Action
The player to your left may trash a card.
If he does, you may gain that card and put it on top of your deck.
If not, you may gain a card from the Trash pile and put it on top of your deck.

Again, I don't really like the fact that it only hits one player, though in this case it seems to be more of a help than a hurt.  As you surmise in your comments, this is pretty weak.  I'd basically never buy this, because I think it would be somewhat rare that it would actually hurt.  Certainly there are times when it would -- maybe about as often as you actually get something good from Masquerade.

It doesn't really enable the Trash, either:  on many boards, this will be the only trasher in the kingdom.  But it will never put anything worth having in the trash, since, if the defending player only has good cards, he will simply forego trashing anything at all.  So nothing good will ever get there, except on the very few boards with a trash-for-benefit card.  And on those, players will be dissuaded from actually using those cards, since it might benefit their opponents.

Quote
Demon Slayer - $5
Action - Reaction
+2 Coin
Each other player discards an Attack card from his hand or reveals a hand with no Attack cards.
---
When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this from your hand.  If you do, that Attack card is trashed.  (It may still affect you.)

Although not strictly useless in a kingdom without attacks, you can always do better than a terminal +$2 that costs $5 -- by buying Silver instead, for example.  So this is another dead card in an attack-less kingdom.

The greater problem, though, is that reactions that hurt the attacker are inherently flawed.  It sounds like good gameplay if an attacker has to think twice before playing an attack, but really what will happen is that players simply won't buy attacks in the first place, for fear of the tempo loss when they lose them.  That, in turn, means this is a dead card even IF there are attack cards present in the kingdom.

Quote
Ogre - $5
Action - Attack
The player to your left may trash a card from his hand.  If he does, the player to his left may trash two cards.  If he does, the player to his left may trash three cards.  This continues clockwise until a player refuses to trash any cards.  That player discards his hand.

Comment: in a two-player game, if you're willing to trash two cards, your opponent may be forced to either discard his hand or trash four cards total.  pretty crazy card, certain to be a gamechanger.  (perhaps also the dumbest thing i've ever come up with)

LOL.  I doubt this card actually works, but it does sound fun enough, in a crazy sort of way, to at least try out as a novelty.

Quote
Haunted Village - $5
Action - Attack
+2 Actions
+1 Card
Each other player gains a Curse card.
Comment: a bewitched village.  is this strictly better than Witch?  it might be.  if so, add "Discard a card from your hand." after the +1 Card

Yikes.  It's not strictly better than Witch, but it's strictly better than Familiar, which is powerful enough that it requires a Potion cost to be costable at all.  I think even with a "discard a card," it's too strong.  Maybe discard 2?

I do think adding in a penalty is a better idea than blindly raising the price, though.  It's probably too swingy to have a $6 card that might decide the game based on which player gets to it first.

Quote
Temple - $5
Victory
Worth 1 VP for each Temple in your deck.
Comment: Competing for these is a waste of time, but getting them all will win you the game.  I'm almost positive something exactly like this has been suggested before.

This has come up, yeah.  In the Secret History of the Intrigue Cards, Donald said that Duke started out this way, but it was broken due to the extreme variance.  The solution, he said, was to make it count another card instead of itself.

Quote
Infernal Chest - $6
Treasure
Worth $4
When you play this, reveal the top card of your deck. 
If the revealed card is a Victory card, gain a Curse.
If not, trash the revealed card.
Comment: a deal with the devil.  it could actually help you, if you prepare for it; it can trash Coppers and Curses just as well as your other stuff.

I was with you until trashing the revealed card.  That just introduces way too much luck into the game, for my taste.  But if you simply discarded the revealed card, this could at least be worth trying.  I like that it becomes more hazardous to use in the end game.  On the other hand, Curses are less problematic in the endgame, so I suspect this is still too strong.  I like the idea here, though.

Quote
Sorceror - $6
Action - Attack
+2 Cards
Each other player discards the top two cards of his deck, then places 2 Confusion cards on top of his deck.
---
Setup: Add a pile of 8/12/16/20 Confusion cards to the Supply, based on the number of players.


Confusion - $0
Action - Confusion
Return this card to the Supply.

Really interesting variation on the Confusion idea.  Changing Confusion in this way is very subtle:  now Confusion-giving attacks don't just dry up the moment the Confusion pile empties.

However, I don't like the attack.  Sea Hag is extremely swingy already, since if it randomly hits one of your opening buys, you might have just lost the game.  This doubles that risk.  Why not simply gain the Confusions to the discard pile?  That seems plenty strong enough for a $6 attack anyhow and would make this a very interesting card.

Quote
The Manticore - $7
Action - Duration
Each other player discards all Victory cards from his hand, or reveals a hand with no Victory cards.
---
While this card is in play, if another player plays an Action, you may discard this card.  If you do, the played Action is discarded without effect.

As you note, this does have nice interactions.  But you pretty much need those few enablers to make the action component any good at all.  I'm also not a fan of the duration effect, but mostly just because I think it would be unfun, rather than broken.
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rinkworks

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 10:00:37 am »
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Hahaha.  I was ninjaed on almost every point.  Well done, Jimmmmm.  (I counted the m's -- aren't you proud of me?)
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 03:12:27 pm »
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Monsters Fan Expansion
Version 2 (10-14-2011)

Some new cards, a lot of reworks.  The Attack-Reaction theme is still the same.  A LOT less trashing.

Enjoy and thanks a lot for the feedback!

----

Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Buy
+1 Coin

Now and at the start of your next turn:
+1 Action

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.

Comment: modified to actually work!

--

Goblin - $3
Action - Attack

+2 Coins

Each other player places a Treasure card on top of his deck, or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.

Comment: now this is fairly annoying.  rather than batting Treasures out of your hand, the Goblin forces you to tuck them away.

--

Haunted Village - $3
Action

+2 Actions

You may gain a Curse.  If you do, +2 Cards.
You may trash this card.  If you do, +2 Cards.

Comment: total rework.  depending on how good your trashing is, this can be a really powerful Village variant.

--

Warg - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Action
+1 Coin

The player to your left chooses one for you:
+2 Cards; or all other players discard a card.

Comment: it's still up to the player to the left, but his choice has a consequence for everybody.

--

Vagabond - $4
Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Each other player discards a card from his hand, then gains a Copper and puts it into his hand.

Comment: repeated attacks have little effect on the upcoming turn, because your opponents can keep discarding the new Copper, but they'll still have them in the deck to deal with later.

--

Sacrifice - $4
Action

You may gain a Curse card.  If you do, trash this card, and gain an Action card costing $5 or less from the supply.  Play it immediately.

Comment: a spooky Feast

--

Mimic - $4
Action

Each other player reveals and discards the top card of his deck.  You may play one of the revealed Action or Treasure cards as though it were in your hand.

Comment: A potential combo with Goblin.

--

Spellbook - $5
Action

+6 Cards.
Discard 4 cards.
Trash a card.

Comment: A totally new concept for the set, basically a Warehouse on crack.  A crackhouse?

--

Temple - $5
Action - Reaction

Action:
Reveal and discard the top card of your deck.
If it's a Treasure, +3 Coins.

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may gain a Gold.

Comment: total rework of Demon Slayer, renamed to Temple.  terrific Goblin counter.

--

Fort - $5
Action - Victory

Worth 2 VP.

You may trash this card and a Gold.  If you do, gain a Fortress.

--

Fortress - $0 (not in the Supply)
Action - Victory - Reaction

Worth 6 VP.

Action:
+2 Cards

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this card from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Comment: another old idea of mine to replace some cards that were terrible: an upgradable Victory card.  this one becomes a 6 VP Moat, though at considerable expense.

--

Infernal Chest - $6
Treasure

Worth $4

When you play this, discard the top card of your deck and gain a Copper, placing it on top of your deck.

Comment: Trashing is a really, really severe penalty, so this Sea Hags you with Coppers, which will last until late game.  it isn't really very "Infernal" anymore, but I like the word.

--

Sorceror - $6
Action - Attack

+2 Cards

Each other player gains 2 Confusion cards.

---
Setup: Add a pile of 8/12/16/20 Confusion cards to the Supply, based on the number of players.

Comment: Basically taking rinkworks' suggestion verbatim.

--

Confusion - $0
Action - Confusion

Return this card to the Supply.

--

Dragon - $7
Action - Attack

+4 Coins

All other players reveal the top 3 cards of their decks, trashing one Non-Victory card among those revealed (that you choose) and discarding the others.  (If all 3 cards are Victory cards, they are all discarded.)

Comment: Replacing the Manticore with another legendary creature, this one far more recognizable and with a much simpler effect: he burninates the top of your opponent's deck.  He also has a shiny hoard of treasure for you.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:34:30 pm by kazztawdal »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 03:24:41 pm »
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Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Coin

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.
As written, this is never in play when another player plays an Attack card. You may want to alter the wording so that it can be.

Quote
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack

+4 Coins

All other players discard the top 3 cards of their decks.

This is only an Attack because you've plonked "Attack" onto it. Its effect on the other players is not a nasty one.
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 03:30:31 pm »
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Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Coin

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.
As written, this is never in play when another player plays an Attack card. You may want to alter the wording so that it can be.

You're completely right.  I even just read rinkworks' novel on fan cards and should have remembered how Duration cards work.

I'll make an edit right now.

Quote
Quote
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack

+4 Coins

All other players discard the top 3 cards of their decks.

This is only an Attack because you've plonked "Attack" onto it. Its effect on the other players is not a nasty one.

Hum.  It is variably nasty; I hate having my combo milled out.  You're probably right, though... I have an idea for an edit.  I'll go change it.
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 03:36:07 pm »
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Dragon now reads:

Quote
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack

+4 Coins

All other players reveal the top 3 cards of their decks, trashing one Non-Victory card among those revealed (that you choose) and discarding the others.  (If all 3 cards are Victory cards, they are all discarded.)

Can't decide if there should be a Non-Victory restriction or a $5 or under cost restriction on the trashing.  I do think the person playing Dragon should choose the target for trashing, because otherwise it's very likely to just get rid of Coppers.
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rinkworks

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 03:54:41 pm »
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Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Coin

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.

Just realized something about this one.  How long does this stay out?  I assume until next turn, but the rules on Durations are that they stay out until the last turn in which they have an effect.  So unless it does something next turn (like +1 Buy, +1 Coin, to continue in the Lighthouse mold), a literal reading of the card is, I suppose, that it gets cleaned up on the very turn you play it.

Quote
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack
+2 Coins
Each other player places a Treasure card on top of his deck, or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.

I think you made it even stronger.  Compare Ghost Ship, a brutal attack, with Militia, a merely annoying one.  I guess it's situationally stronger, since deferring a Gold in an otherwise junky hand might greatly improve the next hand.  But overall I'm still really dubious about this at $3.

Quote
Haunted Village - $3
Action

+2 Actions

You may gain a Curse.  If you do, +2 Cards.
You may trash this card.  If you do, +2 Cards.

Love this.  It's probably perfect as is.

Quote
Warg - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Action
+1 Coin

The player to your left chooses one for you:
+2 Cards; or all other players discard a card.

Comment: it's still up to the player to the left, but his choice has a consequence for everybody.

Love this, too.  A much more elegant solution that I'd thought of.

Quote
Vagabond - $4
Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Each other player discards a card from his hand, then gains a Copper and puts it into his hand.

A cantrip spammer is a brutal card, almost certainly overpowered at $4.  The gain-to-hand nuance does weaken it a bit (usually) in a very nice way, but I still think this needs to be $5 and is questionable even then.  One thing that makes Coppers even worse than Curses, despite that they have a little buying power, is that they'll almost never run out.  The fact that Curses run out is a big downside for cards like Witch and Familiar, and yet those are still among the strongest cards in the game.

But definitely playtest this one, because this might definitely not play out exactly like I envision it.

Quote
Sacrifice - $4
Action
You may gain a Curse card.  If you do, trash this card, and gain an Action card costing $5 or less from the supply.  Play it immediately.

Interesting; I suspect it will mostly be situational, but I can see it being useful once in a while.  Question:  When you play the gained card, does it use up an action?  What if you have no actions left?  Maybe that's not a big deal, since Throne Room manages to be clear on this point despite not clarifying on the card itself.

Quote
Mimic - $4
Action
Each other player reveals and discards the top card of his deck.  You may play one of the revealed Action or Treasure cards as though it were in your hand.

What if the revealed Action is Feast?  Does it get trashed?  I've seen this sort of idea before and found it interesting, but I can't help but worry that there could be some complicated rules snags.  Can't think of any offhand, though.

I'd probably lower the price.  Unless you can reliably mimic a $5 card with it, it's probably not worth it at $4, since you could have simply bought the mimicked card in the first place.  The uncontrollability of it should probably drive the price down.  Compare with Smugglers, a $3 card that lets you gain Golds and Grand Markets -- not just use them, but add them to your deck.  This is even swingier, since it's more likely to hit Coppers and Curses and can't make use of any non-hybrid victory cards that come up.  I actually wonder if a $2 cost is okay here, but I'm only guessing.

Quote
Spellbook - $5
Action
+6 Cards.
Discard 4 cards.
Trash a card.
Comment: A totally new concept for the set, basically a Warehouse on crack.  A crackhouse?

Neat.  Tough to say how this will play out.  In a Village-heavy deck, it's probably dominant, but that's okay.  Without Villages, it's still probably a spectacular X for a BM+X strategy.

Quote
Temple - $5
Action - Reaction

Action:
Reveal and discard the top card of your deck.
If it's a Treasure, +3 Coins.

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may gain a Gold.

Comment: total rework of Demon Slayer, renamed to Temple.  terrific Goblin counter.

Pretty swingy, and in the absence of attacks it's almost certainly weaker than Tribute, both in the best case and the average case.  Moreover, the worst case (getting nothing) will happen frequently with Temple and only extremely rarely with Tribute (i.e., when it turns up two Curses).  Should it also give you something if you turn up an action or a victory card?

Quote
Fort - $5
Action - Victory

Worth 2 VP.

You may trash this card and a Gold.  If you do, gain a Fortress.

--

Fortress - $0 (not in the Supply)
Action - Victory - Reaction

Worth 6 VP.

Action:
+2 Cards

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this card from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.

Comment: another old idea of mine to replace some cards that were terrible: an upgradable Victory card.  this one becomes a 6 VP Moat, though at considerable expense.

Too hard for me to predict how it will play, but this is another really intriguing idea.

Quote
Infernal Chest - $6
Treasure

Worth $4

When you play this, discard the top card of your deck and gain a Copper, placing it on top of your deck.

Comment: Trashing is a really, really severe penalty, so this Sea Hags you with Coppers, which will last until late game.  it isn't really very "Infernal" anymore, but I like the word.

Again, tough to predict how this will feel in an actual game.  But it looks fine to me and is definitely an improvement.

Quote
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack
+4 Coins
All other players discard the top 3 cards of their decks.

Comment: Replacing the Manticore with another legendary creature, this one far more recognizable and with a much simpler effect: he burninates the top of your opponent's deck.  He also has a shiny hoard of treasure for you.

Burninating the countryside!  Burninating all the people!

Thing is, arbitrary cycling is usually a net benefit and only becomes a bad thing at the end of the game, once players start greening.  Before that, you're usually just letting them get to their recent buys quicker.

Very daring, putting a +$4 there, but on a $7 terminal, hey, why not?
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rinkworks

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 03:55:38 pm »
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Ninjaed again!
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 04:15:11 pm »
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Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Coin

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.

Just realized something about this one.  How long does this stay out?  I assume until next turn, but the rules on Durations are that they stay out until the last turn in which they have an effect.  So unless it does something next turn (like +1 Buy, +1 Coin, to continue in the Lighthouse mold), a literal reading of the card is, I suppose, that it gets cleaned up on the very turn you play it.

Edited to "Now and at the start of your next turn: +1 Action".  Which may be too good for a $2 card, with the +1 Coin and +1 Buy already.  I'd leave the +1 Buy over the Coin, myself, just because nothing else in the set currently adds Buys.

Quote
Quote
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack
+2 Coins
Each other player places a Treasure card on top of his deck, or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.

I think you made it even stronger.  Compare Ghost Ship, a brutal attack, with Militia, a merely annoying one.  I guess it's situationally stronger, since deferring a Gold in an otherwise junky hand might greatly improve the next hand.  But overall I'm still really dubious about this at $3.

Heh.  The price can go up, sure.  I'd like this card to work, because I do like the idea behind it.

Quote
Quote
Vagabond - $4
Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Each other player discards a card from his hand, then gains a Copper and puts it into his hand.

A cantrip spammer is a brutal card, almost certainly overpowered at $4.  The gain-to-hand nuance does weaken it a bit (usually) in a very nice way, but I still think this needs to be $5 and is questionable even then.  One thing that makes Coppers even worse than Curses, despite that they have a little buying power, is that they'll almost never run out.  The fact that Curses run out is a big downside for cards like Witch and Familiar, and yet those are still among the strongest cards in the game.

But definitely playtest this one, because this might definitely not play out exactly like I envision it.

Hm.  I hate to disagree with the master, but I don't think it does enough for a $5, and it's certainly more powerful if it uses Curses, isn't it?

Would +1 Action, +2 Coin make sense for a switch to $5?

Quote
Quote
Sacrifice - $4
Action
You may gain a Curse card.  If you do, trash this card, and gain an Action card costing $5 or less from the supply.  Play it immediately.

Interesting; I suspect it will mostly be situational, but I can see it being useful once in a while.  Question:  When you play the gained card, does it use up an action?  What if you have no actions left?  Maybe that's not a big deal, since Throne Room manages to be clear on this point despite not clarifying on the card itself.

It used to say "Play it twice immediately," actually.  The gained card doesn't use an Action on its own, and it can't be used with TR/KC because it is supposed to be played immediately after this action resolves.

I was thinking about modifying Call to Arms and Catapult and I essentially turned them into one card, without the Attack restriction.

Quote
Quote
Mimic - $4
Action
Each other player reveals and discards the top card of his deck.  You may play one of the revealed Action or Treasure cards as though it were in your hand.

What if the revealed Action is Feast?  Does it get trashed?  I've seen this sort of idea before and found it interesting, but I can't help but worry that there could be some complicated rules snags.  Can't think of any offhand, though.

I'd probably lower the price.  Unless you can reliably mimic a $5 card with it, it's probably not worth it at $4, since you could have simply bought the mimicked card in the first place.  The uncontrollability of it should probably drive the price down.  Compare with Smugglers, a $3 card that lets you gain Golds and Grand Markets -- not just use them, but add them to your deck.  This is even swingier, since it's more likely to hit Coppers and Curses and can't make use of any non-hybrid victory cards that come up.  I actually wonder if a $2 cost is okay here, but I'm only guessing.


I'm also wondering if this uses up an Action, heh.  Yeah, I tend to overestimate the value of milling an opponent's deck, so I agree that the card is probably overpriced.  It could stay at $4 if it went through more than one card, or something, but otherwise, yeah, it ought to go down or just be replaced with something else.

Quote
Quote
Temple - $5
Action - Reaction

Action:
Reveal and discard the top card of your deck.
If it's a Treasure, +3 Coins.

Reaction:
When another player plays an Attack card, you may gain a Gold.

Comment: total rework of Demon Slayer, renamed to Temple.  terrific Goblin counter.

Pretty swingy, and in the absence of attacks it's almost certainly weaker than Tribute, both in the best case and the average case.  Moreover, the worst case (getting nothing) will happen frequently with Temple and only extremely rarely with Tribute (i.e., when it turns up two Curses).  Should it also give you something if you turn up an action or a victory card?

It's funny, for some reason I think of every Action in the context of "what if this got used three times in a row?" and decide how powerful it is that way.  It's a bad habit; I have fever dreams about King's Court being played on King's Court...

Either the price should go down to $3 or $4 or it should let you draw some cards.  It's certainly not what a $5 terminal should be.

Quote
Quote
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack
+4 Coins
All other players discard the top 3 cards of their decks.

Comment: Replacing the Manticore with another legendary creature, this one far more recognizable and with a much simpler effect: he burninates the top of your opponent's deck.  He also has a shiny hoard of treasure for you.

Burninating the countryside!  Burninating all the people!

Thing is, arbitrary cycling is usually a net benefit and only becomes a bad thing at the end of the game, once players start greening.  Before that, you're usually just letting them get to their recent buys quicker.

Very daring, putting a +$4 there, but on a $7 terminal, hey, why not?

Again, that's me and my sick, sad belief in milling, leftover from playing too much M:TG in 9th grade.

Dragon has turned into a conditional trasher, which may be too disgusting for words.  I'll let you comment on it before I go on.
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rinkworks

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 04:43:09 pm »
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Quote
Quote
A cantrip spammer is a brutal card, almost certainly overpowered at $4.  The gain-to-hand nuance does weaken it a bit (usually) in a very nice way, but I still think this needs to be $5 and is questionable even then.  One thing that makes Coppers even worse than Curses, despite that they have a little buying power, is that they'll almost never run out.  The fact that Curses run out is a big downside for cards like Witch and Familiar, and yet those are still among the strongest cards in the game.

But definitely playtest this one, because this might definitely not play out exactly like I envision it.

Hm.  I hate to disagree with the master, but I don't think it does enough for a $5, and it's certainly more powerful if it uses Curses, isn't it?

Would +1 Action, +2 Coin make sense for a switch to $5?

I'm far from a master -- I just talk like I'm one.  :-)  A couple of playtests will tell you more than I can, but my prediction is still that it's too strong as written.  In answer to your question about cursing being more powerful, I think it depends on what strategy your opponent is using.  If he's building an engine deck, I really do think it's more powerful than a Cursing attack, simply because Copper chokes an engine as badly as Curses do, and you won't run out of ammo.  Even if he's got Chapel to trash stuff, I doubt an engine deck will be workable.  But with a cursing attack, the curses eventually stop, and then an opponent might be able to rebuild.

With a money strategy, though, an influx of Copper is a lot less harmful.  It's still probably pretty annoying, but quite survivable.  This distinction, I understand, is somewhat reflected when you compare benchmarks of BM+Witch simulations vs. BM+Mountebank simulations.  BM+Witch actually outperforms BM+Mountebank.  But in action-based strategies that use Witch or Mountebank, Mountebank emerges as the clear favorite.

Quote
Dragon has turned into a conditional trasher, which may be too disgusting for words.  I'll let you comment on it before I go on.

It makes me uneasy, because Saboteur is my least favorite official card by a long shot -- the only one I hate playing with.  This has a better (but not large) chance of missing, but when it hits it (1) might allow the attacker to pick a better card than Saboteur would have hit, and (2) doesn't give the victim a replacement.

The non-victory clause is an interesting constraint on the attack, but I suspect it still won't be very fun to get hit by this.  But try it out.  Who knows.  It's probably unfair of me to compare this to Saboteur, because it's really quite different from it.
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 04:47:02 pm »
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Thanks for everything, guys, perhaps I'll write something up tomorrow and see about playtesting.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 12:09:37 am »
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Quote
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack
+2 Coins
Each other player discards a Treasure card or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.
Comment: swingy, but i think cheap Attacks like this should be swingy.

This is strictly superior to Cutpurse (except in a couple of contrived and unlikely scenarios one might fabricate as a puzzle) at a cheaper price.  I think $5 might even be too weak for this:  the saving grace of Cutpurse, which is brutal in the early game, is that its power wears off.  This one would start out just as brutally and usually get WORSE as the game goes on.

Okay on second thoughts, this (original Goblin) is actually weaker than Cutpurse whenever the victim has a Copper in hand. Sure, usually you'll discard a Copper, but you have a choice, unlike Cutpurse. Maybe you're about to be possessed, or someone's going to play a Masquerade, or (most commonly) you'd rather discard your Silver and trash your Coppers. Of course, Goblin is way, way, way more brutal when you have no Coppers but other treasures in your hand, and the games when Goblin will be weaker earlier (allowing easier Copper-trashing), it will be way too strong later.

So, certainly many times better than Cutpurse. But for the sake of pedanticism, definitely not strictly better.
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 08:56:59 pm »
0

The new Dragon is going to look like this:

--
Dragon - $7
Action - Attack

+4 Coins

Each other player reveals the top 3 cards of his deck, discards all revealed Treasure and Action cards, and puts the rest back on top.
--

Repeated attacks will eventually do nothing, but the card can be pretty damaging, and without involving trashing.

If playtesting reveals that it's too weak, perhaps if all 3 are Victory cards, you get +2 Cards or something.


The new Goblin draws some inspiration from Hinterlands:

--
Goblin - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Buy
+2 Coins

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it on top of his deck.
--


Mimic is out, to be replaced by:

--
Vampire - $4
Action

+1 Action

Each other player reveals and discards the top card of his deck.

For each revealed Action card, +2 Cards.
For each revealed Treasure card, +2 Coins.
For each revealed Victory card, +2 VP tokens.
--

Not terrible in one-on-one, potentially insane in multiplayer.

Vagabond has changed:

--
Vagabond - $5
Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Each other player may discard a Copper from his hand.  If he does not, he gains a Copper.
--
it's the same in many ways, costs one more now though.  Discarding a Copper is painful on its own, which I like, cause it keeps them from being trashed.

Town Watch as it stands now:
--
Town Watch - $2
Action - Duration

+1 Buy
Now and at the start of your next turn: +1 Action

While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, +1 Card.
--

Temple is the same as before, cost reduced to $3 (from $5).

I'll mock-up the set and steal some artwork to throw onto the cards.  Update shortly.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 09:00:08 pm by kazztawdal »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2011, 09:36:44 pm »
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Goblin - $3
Action - Attack

+1 Buy
+2 Coins

When you gain this, each other player gains a Copper, putting it on top of his deck.
This should be priced higher than Woodcutter; under nearly all normal circumstances, it's a strictly better card.

Quote
Vampire - $4
Action

+1 Action

Each other player reveals and discards the top card of his deck.

For each revealed Action card, +2 Cards.
For each revealed Treasure card, +2 Coins.
For each revealed Victory card, +2 VP tokens.
Insanely overpowered in multiplayer. Change to "your left-hand opponent" or "your right-hand opponent", as per Tribute.

Quote
Vagabond - $5
Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Each other player may discard a Copper from his hand.  If he does not, he gains a Copper.
There are currently four non-terminal Attacks in the game: Minion, Scrying Pool, Spy and Familiar. Minion's attack only hits once per turn; Scrying Pool's and Spy's aren't terribly effective in multiples either. Only Familiar has an effect that is painful in multiples, and it has a very nonstandard cost and thus is hard to gain. This card would be spammed repeatedly and screw up everyone's turns and decks.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2011, 10:21:27 pm »
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ah, all true.

that's why I post these things, heh.

Remove the +Buy from Goblin

Change Vampire to "player to your left"

Vagabond, at this point, is essentially Mountebank anyway, so screw it, let's get rid of it.

How do you like this one, it's partly an old idea, a Market that stops you from doing anything else:

--
Slime - $5
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Coin
+1 Buy

While this is in play, you may only play Slime cards and Treasures.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse, putting it on top of his deck.
--

The most hardcore thing you can do with a Curse, done once per gain, and unreactable.  combos with Ambassador >:3
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 10:31:52 pm by kazztawdal »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2011, 11:14:44 pm »
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--
Slime - $5
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Coin
+1 Buy

While this is in play, you may only play Slime cards and Treasures.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse, putting it on top of his deck.
--
This interacts in severely weird ways with a number of cards, such as Golem.
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 01:25:42 am »
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--
Slime - $5
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Coin
+1 Buy

While this is in play, you may only play Slime cards and Treasures.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse, putting it on top of his deck.
--
This interacts in severely weird ways with a number of cards, such as Golem.

Yeah, I'll have to add an "other cards are discarded without effect" clause.
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kazztawdal

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Re: "Monsters" Fan Expansion
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2011, 12:53:06 am »
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Wow.  Wow, wow, wow.

I love the Hinterlands expansion a lot.  However, most of the ideas in Hinterlands are ideas I had here, or similar enough to make my cards meaningless.

So.

Cancel this expansion, but SINCERE and WILD thanks to rinkworks, Jimmmmm, and Jack Rudd for their constant feedback.  I'll be back with new ideas at some point soon!
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