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Author Topic: Things that don't depend on the board.  (Read 25793 times)

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Qvist

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2013, 04:48:08 pm »
0

If you have €5 in your opening hand, buy a card that costs at least €3.
Anyone ever opened FG/FG on 5/2? Maybe as second player?

I've opened Squire/Chapel before. It might not have literally been a 5/2, though.

How about Chapel / Fool's Gold ? It's the #99 best opening.

itchiko

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2013, 05:23:37 pm »
+10

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Cuzz

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2013, 06:36:58 pm »
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-Open Potion if all cards have Potion in their cost.

Seems extremely dependent on the kingdom.


Yeah, I was trying to come up with a general rule that would work for every example in a large set of boards without needing to know exactly what cards comprised that board. Like if we decided "always open Mint/Fool's Gold," that depends on Mint and Fool's Gold being in the kingdom obviously, but not on any other cards.

Here I neglected to notice how few kingdoms are made up of only Potion cost cards...

I also think you don't want to include things like 'force a win if you can' or 'follow the rules' here, because it's entirely non-specific to Dominion.

Yeah, those were sort of tongue in cheek, since I expect very few examples overall. Still interested in what people come up with though.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:39:19 pm by Cuzz »
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cluckyb

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 07:15:08 pm »
+2

Studies have shown that "It depends on the board" is the most common 5-word string used on this forum, and in the vocabulary of everyone who frequents it [citation needed]. Every rule of thumb has edge-cases. But is this really true? Are there any things that should always be done regardless of the exact specific cards available?

A few to start:

-If you are ahead in VP and can end the game on your turn, do so.

Not necessarily. Fool's gold to level up fairgrounds, for example, could cause you to lose despite being ahead before you end the game. I think you want "If you can end the game on your turn and win, do so"
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popsofctown

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 07:16:52 pm »
+2

-If you are ahead in VP and can end the game on your turn, do so.
[Dwight]False[/Dwight]
Your opponent returned Bank to the top of his deck last turn.  You can use Governor to remodel a Silver into the last Governor and 3 pile the game, but in spite of you 1 VP lead it would be a foolish move to do so.
You can modify the statement so it works, but it gets increasingly trivial.
Quote
-Open Potion if all cards have Potion in their cost.
This is depends on the kingdom because you are specifying a certain subset of possible kingdoms and saying that your rule definitely applies to those kingdoms.
Even so, you might be wrong in six player (if six player is really and truly a thing, I'm not positive it is).
Quote
-Don't open double Curse.
Maximum number of players, everyone before you purchased a Mountebank, you have a 3/4 opening and no reactions or trashing are available.  You're playing with Intrigue and Dominion Base cards treasures, so the Coppers won't run out and you can actually build an engine that gets up to Provinces or even Colonies if you make sure you take on as few Coppers as possible.  Enginey cards are available at a variety of costs, so no particular pile will run out, especially if some but not all players go for 6 point Fairgrounds.  One of the enginey cards is a Menagerie that will greatly appreciate you minimizing your Copper intake.  Duplicate curses are easier to discard.
Quote
-Play the game according to the rules in the rulebook.
That's vacuous.  If you don't play the game according to the rules in the rulebook, technically speaking you are not playing Dominion at all.  Depends on the kingdom is a phrase that governs different ways of playing dominion, not whether to play a game that -is- dominion at all.
Quote
-Don't viciously insult/attack your opponent.
"/" generally can be interpreted as an "or", so this is false.  If Torturer is on the board, you should viciously attack your opponent.  (as long as Torturer is a strong card on that board.  It depends on the kingdom)
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popsofctown

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2013, 07:19:21 pm »
0

I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.
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michaeljb

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2013, 07:28:46 pm »
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I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.

On what kingdom would you legitimately want to open Duchy/Estate?
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theory

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2013, 07:32:20 pm »
0

Perhaps WW's statement ought to be generalized into "Always purchase at least one Treasure or Action card on one of your first two turns."

Where this topic goes depends entirely on whether you actually want to look for True Dominion Advice that is always helpful (although not necessarily impervious to extreme edge casing), or if you're issuing a challenge to come up with f.DS-CertifiedTM Guaranteed-to-be-True Dominion Advice.
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popsofctown

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2013, 07:52:03 pm »
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I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.

On what kingdom would you legitimately want to open Duchy/Estate?
Multiple players, Fairgrounds and Silk Road on the board, no 2's or 5's.  An opponent added a Copper to your deck with Noble Brigand.  You buy the Duchy early because you might never hit five again all game, and there's a Hovel in your hand.  You buy Estate because you might never hit 2 again all game, and the best 3$ card is Menagerie.

Convinced?
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florrat

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2013, 08:05:40 pm »
+1

WW's statement also depends on the board, because it's not always true. What if you opened $2/$0 without $2 kingdom cards? Then you often don't want to buy anything.

Now try to figure out yourself how it is possible to open $2/$0 ;) (yes, it involves a 6 player game with Noble Brigand, and it's even possible if you always choose to take curses with torturer).

I'm not sure if in the example popsofctown opening double curse is optimal strategy, since just 2 curses won't help you so much against - say - 5 mountebanks, so you'll be taking copper anyway, and a province-reaching engine won't be viable. But maybe some better example can be thought of if you open $2/$0.

I'm almost sure that the extension of michaeljb that you shouldn't open with two $0 cards is wrong, though. When you open $2/$0 opening double copper might be optimal strategy...
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sudgy

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2013, 08:09:46 pm »
0

Where this topic goes depends entirely on whether you actually want to look for True Dominion Advice that is always helpful (although not necessarily impervious to extreme edge casing), or if you're issuing a challenge to come up with f.DS-CertifiedTM Guaranteed-to-be-True Dominion Advice.

I think we're looking for the latter.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

michaeljb

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 08:17:29 pm »
0

I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.

On what kingdom would you legitimately want to open Duchy/Estate?
Multiple players, Fairgrounds and Silk Road on the board, no 2's or 5's.  An opponent added a Copper to your deck with Noble Brigand.  You buy the Duchy early because you might never hit five again all game, and there's a Hovel in your hand.  You buy Estate because you might never hit 2 again all game, and the best 3$ card is Menagerie.

Convinced?

Well if you're planning on never hitting $5 again, Fairgrounds don't matter (and if they did maybe you'd want to hang on to Hovel). The fact that it's a Shelters game would probably discourage Silk Road, and if Menagerie is the "best" $3, that's another reason why Silk Road probably isn't the way to go--you probably want to do some sort of engine with Menagerie if it is better than Silver. Also buying Silver instead of Duchy improves your odds of hitting $5 again...

No :P
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Kirian

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 08:26:21 pm »
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I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.

On what kingdom would you legitimately want to open Duchy/Estate?
Multiple players, Fairgrounds and Silk Road on the board, no 2's or 5's.  An opponent added a Copper to your deck with Noble Brigand.  You buy the Duchy early because you might never hit five again all game, and there's a Hovel in your hand.  You buy Estate because you might never hit 2 again all game, and the best 3$ card is Menagerie.

Convinced?

No, I'm not.  Ignoring that you're buying Estate, not Duchy, with a Hovel in hand, your chances of hitting $4 for SRs plummets (average hand goes from $3.6 to $3.3).  Going Silver/Estate takes you from $3.6 to $3.75, increasing your chance of hitting $4 for SR or possibly $5 for a Duchy later.  It also makes it possible to get a Fairgrounds later on--you must have a Silver at some point to do that.  Both Duchy and Silver increase your immediate chances of activating Menagerie and both increase your Fairgrounds value.

Opening Estate/Noble Brigand only increases your average purchasing power by a little bit, but it gives you a chance of stealing Silvers from your opponents.
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michaeljb

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2013, 08:27:17 pm »
0

WW's statement also depends on the board, because it's not always true. What if you opened $2/$0 without $2 kingdom cards? Then you often don't want to buy anything.

Now try to figure out yourself how it is possible to open $2/$0 ;) (yes, it involves a 6 player game with Noble Brigand, and it's even possible if you always choose to take curses with torturer).

I'm not sure if in the example popsofctown opening double curse is optimal strategy, since just 2 curses won't help you so much against - say - 5 mountebanks, so you'll be taking copper anyway, and a province-reaching engine won't be viable. But maybe some better example can be thought of if you open $2/$0.

I'm almost sure that the extension of michaeljb that you shouldn't open with two $0 cards is wrong, though. When you open $2/$0 opening double copper might be optimal strategy...

Opening $2/$0 -- Something with Noble Brigand and IGG. In which case, you definitely would want to do Copper/Copper...

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yudantaiteki

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2013, 09:45:09 pm »
0

Which is worse, Mint/Curse or the 10 Mandarin "opening"?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:50:06 pm by yudantaiteki »
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sudgy

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2013, 09:49:09 pm »
0

Whatever is the best "pure" BM strategy doesn't depend on the kingdom.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Kirian

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2013, 09:56:52 pm »
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Whatever is the best "pure" BM strategy doesn't depend on the kingdom.

Edge case:  Platinum and Colony
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DG

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2013, 11:00:07 pm »
+1

Don't play cards randomly. Look at you hand and decide which cards to play and in what order.

This may sound stupid but I do know card games where you can pick cards randomly and still have a moderate success rate. This can include not even looking at your cards and just playing them blindly.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:01:27 pm by DG »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2013, 11:00:23 pm »
+1

Whatever is the best "pure" BM strategy doesn't depend on the kingdom.
It absolutely does - is there a reason I need to go for all 8 provinces, or 4, or 5, or 6, or what? How long do I build up? Because you can't play even "pure BM" in a box.

sudgy

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2013, 11:13:24 pm »
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Whatever is the best "pure" BM strategy doesn't depend on the kingdom.
It absolutely does - is there a reason I need to go for all 8 provinces, or 4, or 5, or 6, or what? How long do I build up? Because you can't play even "pure BM" in a box.

Sorry, I was meaning in a mirror game - basically what BMU tries to be.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

popsofctown

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2013, 01:13:22 am »
0

I think WW is the only one to make a valid statement that doesn't depend on the kingdom.  I'll try to think of one.

On what kingdom would you legitimately want to open Duchy/Estate?
Multiple players, Fairgrounds and Silk Road on the board, no 2's or 5's.  An opponent added a Copper to your deck with Noble Brigand.  You buy the Duchy early because you might never hit five again all game, and there's a Hovel in your hand.  You buy Estate because you might never hit 2 again all game, and the best 3$ card is Menagerie.

Convinced?

Well if you're planning on never hitting $5 again, Fairgrounds don't matter (and if they did maybe you'd want to hang on to Hovel). The fact that it's a Shelters game would probably discourage Silk Road, and if Menagerie is the "best" $3, that's another reason why Silk Road probably isn't the way to go--you probably want to do some sort of engine with Menagerie if it is better than Silver. Also buying Silver instead of Duchy improves your odds of hitting $5 again...

No :P
I wasn't clear about this:
I meant you might never hit exactly 5$ again.  If you hit more than 5$, you want Fairgrounds or maybe your singleton copy of Gold. 
It's pretty unlikely that you go over and under 5$ but never hit it on the nose again, but I was just tossing that up as a nudge. 

Silk Road is not a strategy here, of course not, but you can pick up a single copy of Silk Roads as a janky Tunnel or Duchy and the extra Estate helps out with that (Silk Road has a unique name, so it is a good late game fueler for Fairgrounds).
You want some kind of quirky Menagerie thing so you can get up to 6$ for the Fairgrounds. 

Lastly, no one seemed to notice that I cheated, you can't buy a Duchy and trash a Hovel.  The Hovel will have to go out with the Estate I guess.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 01:15:57 am by popsofctown »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2013, 01:36:20 am »
0

Lastly, no one seemed to notice that I cheated, you can't buy a Duchy and trash a Hovel.  The Hovel will have to go out with the Estate I guess.

I noticed, and someone did point it out.  Kirian, I think.

Edit: Yes, in post 37.
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florrat

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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2013, 04:24:32 am »
0

Opening $2/$0 -- Something with Noble Brigand and IGG. In which case, you definitely would want to do Copper/Copper...
I'm not sure how you would get $0 in your hand with only Noble Brigand and IGG on the board. As far as I can see, it requires at least 8 opponents to not get a single copper in your hand. But still, in a 6 player game, 2 of them opening NB (Noble Brigand) and 3 of them IGG (you're last), it is possible to open $2/$1, which would indeed justify a copper/copper opening.

Also, in a three player game it's possible to open $2/$2 when both your opponents open NB.

My solution was that one of your opponents opened NB, and 3 other Cutpurse. Then they all get lucky and get a cutpurse in their second hand (EDIT: and you get unlucky by getting 2 estates in your second hand again), and play it, so you lose all your copper before your second turn. In that case, extra copper might be not so hot, so opening nothing/nothing can be optimal strategy.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 08:46:29 am by florrat »
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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2013, 04:31:47 am »
+3

Things that don't depend on the board?

--my results (loss) in games against WW
--the blue dog
--always buy Cheesemaker
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Re: Things that don't depend on the board.
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2013, 05:02:42 am »
+1

Another thing that doesn't depend on the board:

If you're playing in a game in a tournament setting, it might be in your best interest to try to win, get second/third or last, depending on the current standings.

So: "if you can end the game and be sure of winning, you should do so" isn't always right.
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