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Author Topic: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?  (Read 104265 times)

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Elyv

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2011, 03:35:32 pm »
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I corrected it just as you were posting :P

Another question...is it better to trash a Silver and gain 3, or trash a Copper and gain a Silver during your Buy Phase?
Depends on what you would buy instead and what your deck looks like, I imagine. I suspect that usually, trash silver=>+3 silver is better, though.
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How Bazaar

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2011, 03:40:10 pm »
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Trader would be good with trade route and also for grand markets.  I think it will end up being useful.

Edit: I'm just going to find more uses, but it's also nice for early estate/hoard.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:10:16 pm by How Bazaar »
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2011, 03:42:42 pm »
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Another question...is it better to trash a Silver and gain 3, or trash a Copper and gain a Silver during your Buy Phase (in the early game)?

So, you're saying, if you have Silver, Copper x2, Trader, and you've been Cutpursed so that's it, is it better to Trade the Silver or one of the Coppers, stipulating that there's nothing to buy at $2 or $4, and you'll buy Silver with $3?

Well, post turn:

If you Trade the Silver, you have 3 Silver, 2 Copper.
If you Trade a Copper, you have 3 Silver (the one you started with, the one you bought, and the one you Traded), 1 Copper.

EDIT: Wait.  Duh.  In my mind, you can Trade a Copper for a Silver, but actually no, only for the reactive use.  So Situation 2 is 2 Silver, 1 Copper.  Is 3 Silver, 2 Copper better than 2 Silver, 1 Copper?  I suspect that 2 Silver, 1 Copper is usually but not always better, especially when we stipulate a deck that has an easy time gaining Silver.

So, Trading the Copper is presumably better in most decks, Trading the Silver is better if you're trying to expand your deck a la Gardens.  (Especially since in the case of Gardens, you'd probably also buy a Copper, so you'd have one more card besides that).

But...  it seems like a rare scenario.  That 5th card really matters!  If it's a Copper, you've got the possibility of a $5 buy.  If it's a Silver, you've got the possibility of a $6 buy, or a $4 + Trade a Silver for 3 more Silvers, or a $5 + Trade a Copper for nothing.  If it's an Estate, it seems like it's almost a no-brainer to Trade the Estate instead of any of your money.  If it's an Action, well, you're probably set up for something decent?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 03:49:52 pm by Epoch »
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ackack

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2011, 03:48:29 pm »
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If you play Trader to trash a Copper, it is no longer in hand to turn the new Copper you gain into Silver. So unless I'm misunderstanding something, that's not an option.
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2011, 03:51:10 pm »
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If you play Trader to trash a Copper, it is no longer in hand to turn the new Copper you gain into Silver. So unless I'm misunderstanding something, that's not an option.

Yeah, I edited.  I was thinking you could use the Action part of Trader to turn a Copper into a Silver, but obviously you can't.  What can I say?  It's a new card, I haven't fully internalized it!
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ackack

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2011, 03:55:26 pm »
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Sure. Not trying to single you out, since it had gone a few posts I figured it was worth mentioning.
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Fangz

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2011, 04:10:36 pm »
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No, you don't put it on top of your deck. The Silver goes into your discard pile just like any other gained card, unless you have something (like a Watchtower) that can put it elsewhere.

People who say you don't want lots of Silvers, man, that is only true (in a Province game) if you are building an engine. Trader isn't like some big sexy card or anything, but Silvers are basically pure goodness on action-poor boards without Colonies. That said I suspect that (unless Geronimoo made some error in testing Trader as an opener in his simulation) it will not be a particularly strong card unless you have plans for the reaction effect. This doesn't surprise me much since the opportunity cost is pretty high of having it in hand instead of a Silver you could have bought instead. One possible suggestion for simulation: never use it to trash Copper unless that $1 was not useful this turn.

Also anybody who says "oh, Border Village is OK I guess if there's a $5 terminal you want," are we talking about the same game? $5 terminals are like the most important class of power cards in Dominion, and even if there isn't one, there are also lots of great $4 terminals that benefit from good Village density.

Well, I haven't really managed to make trader-BM work. The problem is this: silvers are good and all, but the main thing that gets you those Provinces early are golds. The price you pay in slowing down when those golds enter your hand can be quite fatal. If you are just trying to dilute everything down with silvers... well, that works long term, but it's very slow. In addition, you'll only likely get to play traders twice or three times, because of how fast your deck inflates, and using traders for the action effect defeats the reaction effect because the density of your cards becomes too small. (And ironically, if you are reliant on each of your hands having a trader in it, having a deck be predominantly silvers and coppers makes it damn hard to get $8 out of the remainder.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 04:14:21 pm by Fangz »
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Blooki

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2011, 04:14:04 pm »
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Possible issue with Trader.

Turn 1 - Buy Trader.
Turn 2 - Do nothing.
Turn 3 - Buy Curse. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Repeat until Silver pile is depleted.

I think we need a ruling on this Donald.
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How Bazaar

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2011, 04:19:48 pm »
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Possible issue with Trader.

Turn 1 - Buy Trader.
Turn 2 - Do nothing.
Turn 3 - Buy Curse. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Repeat until Silver pile is depleted.

I think we need a ruling on this Donald.

You instead gain a silver. You aren't trashing the card.
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rinkworks

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2011, 04:22:24 pm »
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Donald addresses this in his preview blurb here:  http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/710637/previews-1

The idea is that the reaction is when you WOULD gain a card, you gain a Silver instead.  The card you would have gained doesn't go anywhere or get trashed or anything.  There's still an infinite loop possible here, just as there is with all reaction cards (except Watchtower?), but it doesn't deplete any piles.  It goes basically like this:

Buy Curse.  Reveal Trader to gain Silver instead of Curse.  Reveal Trader to gain Silver instead of Silver.  Reveal Trader to gain Silver instead of Silver.  Reveal Trader to gain Silver instead of Silver.  [etc]

...but the only card that actually gets gained is the Silver you get on the final reveal of the Trader.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 04:26:08 pm by rinkworks »
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play2draw

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2011, 04:23:20 pm »
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Possible issue with Trader.

Turn 1 - Buy Trader.
Turn 2 - Do nothing.
Turn 3 - Buy Curse. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Gain Silver. Reveal Trader. Repeat until Silver pile is depleted.

I think we need a ruling on this Donald.

From the copy:
"It doesn't matter how many Traders you reveal how many times, you still just get one Silver instead of the original card."
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Blooki

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2011, 04:38:14 pm »
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Got it, thanks guys.
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guided

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2011, 04:43:21 pm »
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Well, I haven't really managed to make trader-BM work. The problem is this: silvers are good and all, but the main thing that gets you those Provinces early are golds. The price you pay in slowing down when those golds enter your hand can be quite fatal. If you are just trying to dilute everything down with silvers... well, that works long term, but it's very slow. In addition, you'll only likely get to play traders twice or three times, because of how fast your deck inflates, and using traders for the action effect defeats the reaction effect because the density of your cards becomes too small. (And ironically, if you are reliant on each of your hands having a trader in it, having a deck be predominantly silvers and coppers makes it damn hard to get $8 out of the remainder.)
This is believable. My only real objection is to the notion that somehow Silver is a bad card you never want lots of. Sometimes lots of Silvers is great!
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2011, 04:47:07 pm »
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I played a series of games using the two new cards this morning.  In my experience it is Trader that can radically alter the landscape of a Dominion game.  It has a cascading effect that can pretty quickly allow a player to gain the density of silver to work the Province pile.  Four and five Silver hands become quite common.  I lost one game using this strategy against a dedicated Possession deck simply because he used my hands more often than I did.  The other time I used this strat I won.

The Border Village is good, but like someone said before, it is a $1 Village added to the cost of a $5 card.  In this sense I suppose it can be compared to Peddler, in that it is a card that can be bought cheaper than the stated cost and can therefor be trashed for a greater benefit or simply used as an engine card. 
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2011, 04:48:44 pm »
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I also tried a gardens-trader strat several times in solitaire mode and I have doubts that it is fast enough for a strict Garden victory.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
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ChaosRed

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2011, 04:56:23 pm »
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I guess one of the weaknesses of it, is you are always looking to 3-pile with Gardens and gaining Silver doesn't really help you achieve that.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2011, 04:56:55 pm »
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...The idea is that the reaction is when you WOULD gain a card, you gain a Silver instead.  The card you would have gained doesn't go anywhere or get trashed or anything.  There's still an infinite loop possible here, just as there is with all reaction cards (except Watchtower?), but it doesn't deplete any piles.  It goes basically like this:...

Off topic but I don't believe there is an infinite loop associated with Horse Traders.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2011, 04:57:51 pm »
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I guess one of the weaknesses of it, is you are always looking to 3-pile with Gardens and gaining Silver doesn't really help you achieve that.

It's entirely possible to run out the Silver pile with Trader.
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2011, 05:00:11 pm »
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I guess one of the weaknesses of it, is you are always looking to 3-pile with Gardens and gaining Silver doesn't really help you achieve that.

But who says that you're "always looking to 3-pile with Gardens"?  That's how Workshop/Gardens works.  But that's because Workshop/Gardens is a terrible, terrible deck by about turn 11, really only capable of generating $2 or so with actual Treasure.

Whereas Trader/Gardens is, in my tests, routinely capable of reaching $8 by the mid-teens.
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guided

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2011, 05:07:58 pm »
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Trader/Gardens definitely seems like a slower non-rush strategy to me. Look to eventually run out the Silvers, score 5+ points per Gardens, and pick up some Provinces and Duchies, which should be doable even without any Golds. Dunno if it will actually work in practice though.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2011, 05:11:24 pm »
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I think it's quite possible that traders/gardens is better against a deck that's going for provinces than Workshop/Gardens while losing to Workshop/Gardens in the head-to-head. The thing in the head-to-head is that you've got to get those gardens at some point, and Workshop/Gardens is getting them so much faster than you are, so you aren't going to get many.

I'm not convinced that Traders is that much slower at getting Gardens than Workshop is.  What it's a lot slower at is getting Estates and Coppers.

With Workshops, you need to spend a while Workshopping more Workshops.  Traders/Gardens functions pretty well based on my limited testing with just a couple of Traders in it, and it generates $4 very consistently.
Yes, but that "a while" isn't very long at all. 3 turns total, really, especially as you should gardens earlier in the mirror matchup than you otherwise would. If workshop doesn't get gardens significantly faster than buying them, you should basically never play it as a deck. I expect that a typical Workshop/Gardens should win the race against Trader/Gardens 6/2ish.

ChaosRed

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2011, 05:12:04 pm »
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3-piling with Gardens can make sense on some boards, as you can make it happen faster than your opponent gets provinces.

With Woodcutter and Pawn on the board with Trader, it seemed like I could 3-pile fairly fast on a very recent solo run.

Other boards, yeah, you are not looking to 3-pile.

I wasn't sure how many Traders I needed, I'll try again see what the threshold is. But if there are cheap +buys (like Woodshop and Pawn), Traders seems quite useful.
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2011, 05:33:10 pm »
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Yes, but that "a while" isn't very long at all. 3 turns total, really, especially as you should gardens earlier in the mirror matchup than you otherwise would. If workshop doesn't get gardens significantly faster than buying them, you should basically never play it as a deck. I expect that a typical Workshop/Gardens should win the race against Trader/Gardens 6/2ish.

Well, I just played 4 games each with Workshop/Gardens and Trader/Gardens.  Here are my results:

Game 1, W/G:  4th Garden turn 7.  5th Garden turn 8, 6th Garden turn 9, 7th Garden turn 11, 8th Garden turn 12.
Game 2, W/G:  4th Garden turn 9.  5th Garden turn 10, 6th Garden turn 13, 7th Garden turn 14, 8th Garden turn 15.
Game 3, W/G:  4th Garden turn 8.  5th Garden turn 9.  6th Garden turn 10.  7th Garden turn 11, 8th Garden turn 13.
Game 4, W/G:  4th Garden turn 8.  5th Garden turn 11.  6th Garden turn 12.  7th Garden turn 13, 8th Garden turn 14.

(Game 2 was appallingly unlucky).

Game 1, T/G:  4th Garden turn 6.  5th Garden turn 7.  6th Garden turn 8.  7th Garden turn 11.  8th Garden turn 13.
Game 2, T/G:  4th Garden turn 7.  5th Garden turn 8.  6th Garden turn 9.  7th Garden turn 10. 8th Garden turn 12.
Game 3, T/G:  4th Garden turn 9.  5th Garden turn 11.  6th Garden turn 12.  7th Garden turn 13.  8th Garden turn 14.
Game 4, T/G:  4th Garden turn 7.  5th Garden turn 8.  6th Garden turn 9.  7th Garden turn 11.  8th Garden turn 12.

(Game 1 was appallingly lucky).

Now, that ain't science.  But it suggests to me that hoping for a 6/2 split for the Workshop deck is aspirational rather than common.  I think a 5/3 split will be much more likely.
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ChaosRed

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2011, 05:35:31 pm »
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You can indeed run out of Silver, actually it screwed me up, I was only on 5 gardens when I ended the game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/13/game-20111013-143355-c0368db8.html

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jimjam

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2011, 05:53:11 pm »
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Anyone want to test out Trader/Embargo opening? I banned myself from playing for the semester.
On a big money Kingdom and your opponent doesn't open trader you should be set.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:55:38 pm by jimjam »
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