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Author Topic: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?  (Read 44403 times)

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Fangz

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So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« on: October 13, 2011, 05:04:43 am »
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Let's get in early, huh. What are people's impressions so far?

Right now Border Village and Trader have appeared on Isotropic. My thoughts:

Trader: Seems to be a solid meh from me. Nothing like a way of gaining lots and lots of silvers to underline how having too many silvers kills your deck, huh? Gaining silvers instead of curses isn't too shabby, but really I'd rather not gain a card at all. Trying to play BM-Trader ended in failure - too many silvers meant reshuffles are so far in between that you never see the golds you need. The card kinda anti-synergises with itself - too many silvers means you just won't see many plays of this at all. Maybe this might work with some chapel based strategy where you don't have to worry about running out of coppers, but otherwise I can't see much use for this card.

Border village: Seems very selection dependent. It's got a good synergy with stuff like Torturer, helping you get chains out fast. But if there aren't any good $5 terminals, seems kinda wasteful. The games I played, it seemed to be pretty useless - hamlet made it redundant, since by the time we reached $6 we're doing okay for villages anyway.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 05:13:27 am by Fangz »
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Geronimoo

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 05:20:33 am »
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Could someone please post the card text (boardgamegeek and isotropic are blocked on my network).
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Fangz

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 05:28:26 am »
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Trader - $4
Action - Reaction

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a number of Silvers equal to the cost in coins of the trashed card.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Silver.


Border Village - $6
Action

+1 Card
+2 Actions

When you gain this, gain a card costing less than this.
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Geronimoo

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 05:58:40 am »
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Border Village feels a lot like the Cascade mechanic from Magic:The Gathering (Bloodbraid Elf anyone?). This mechanic proved slightly broken, but it's probably safe in Dominion...
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Qvist

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 06:37:00 am »
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So, I'm reading this forum since a while now. And as the new cards are spoiled, I registered and like to comment them too.

Border Village:
I like it. Many combos possible. Buy a BV, get a Council Room, Torturer, etc

If there's a Talisman in play: I buy a Border Village, gain a Smithy and gain a second one. Great! Question: 2 Bridges, Play a Talisman, buy a BV, get 2, so I get 4 Smithies, right?

If I have a Watchtower in hand or played a Royal Seal, I get BV and Smithy right on top of the deck.

And: Never swindle a Border Village! He will get an additional card.

Great with Smugglers: Gain a BV and an additional card.

Trader:
I don't like it very much. When do you want so many silvers? Only cases I see is in Gardens strategy and to gain 2 silvers early by trashing your estates. But I rather get $4 from Bishop.

Jimmmmm

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 07:30:00 am »
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I kind of really hate Trader. The reaction could be okay against Cursors etc, but the action is terrible. Silver is the most boring card in the game, and the cards you actually want to trash don't even give you that much. So yeah. Not a fan. Hopefully the other Hinterland cards go uphill from here.

BV could be interesting.

And: Never swindle a Border Village! He will get an additional card.

Not necessarily. If the choice is a Gold, or a Village and, say, a Festival, I could see myself sometimes giving my opponent the latter. Obviously depends on what's available.
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DG

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 07:33:32 am »
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Link to BGG preview with images from Donald X. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/710637/previews-1.

The previous reaction cards were cunning in the way that they defended against most/all attacks. The trader doesn't appear to provide any defence against a militia, spy, or bureaucrat style attack. It really is all about the silver.
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ilpars

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 07:43:47 am »
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Trader is a great card if there is also a remodel/upgrade kind of card in the game.
Then you can buy Trader in first 2 rounds. Use it twice and then upgrade it to something else.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 07:50:10 am »
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Right okay, it might be a good opener to get your economy off the ground. It might even be a good card. My objection is that it's boring.
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Geronimoo

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 08:15:56 am »
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Some very early Simulation results (not yet published):

Trader: this is quite weak (1 Trader beats Big Money Ultimate 51-45), but very strong against Sea Hag (3 Traders beat 2 Sea Hags 60-37). Letting it trash another Trader before Copper gives slightly better results.

Border Village: I added this to an existing Torturer/Village bot and it obviously improved the bot (in the greening stage it's fun to buy Border Village/gain Duchy)

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Kuildeous

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 08:48:31 am »
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Those are interesting. I wouldn't even say that Trader is a boring card. The end result (having a buttload of Silvers) may be boring, but the card play is kind of fascinating. Numerically, it's better than Salvager, since you can turn one Silver into three. Of course, the downside is that you're limited to just Silvers. I don't see a reason to play Trader on a Province unless you Golem-screwed yourself.

If it were the only reaction card in a curse-heavy deck, I'd buy it. After all, if you're going to clog your deck, it might as well be Silvers instead of Curses. It could be a really good counter to Mountebank. For non-Curses, the reaction is less desirable. If you have +Buy, you could buy a Copper and turn it into a Silver. This can make a Gardens deck stronger.  Other than that, I don't see that portion getting much use. It'd make you feel better when you can only afford a 2-cost card, but if that Trader was a Silver instead, your buying power would have been better.

The regular action is pretty conditional. I'd definitely consider buying it if I had other trashers in my deck. Trash-for-benefit, of course would be awesome (Forge three Silvers into a Platinum? Okay).

Also, you can annoy your opponent by revealing Trader after playing Bureaucrat.

Border Village is interesting. I'd have to see it in play, but the ability to gain just about any +Cards at the same time as this makes for a ready-made combo. I can see a lot of people falling for trap where they focus on this card instead of a Gold. As pointed out, Jesters and Smugglers can make this a pretty crazy card.
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ackack

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 08:53:15 am »
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I'm guessing that this thread is probably underrating Trader. Seems like the kind of card which can speed you up a ton at the beginning, and then you don't have to play it later if you don't want to. Trader/Gardens is most likely formidable.

Border Village seems kinda whatever. Obviously a nice card when there are 5s you want, and Donald's point that it's a Village that can be benefit-trashed for unusually high gain is a good one. I'm guessing it will be a pretty weak 6. edit: Obviously it enhances engine building for things like Torturer/Rabble/Wharf, and so perhaps its meta-value (effectively making those cards stronger) makes it good, much like Fishing Village.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 09:00:51 am by ackack »
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Davio

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 09:22:06 am »
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I wonder if Trader/Gardens is really viable or whether the opportunity cost is too high...

You're probably better off with buying a WS/WC/IW/Gardens/Estate/Copper than a Trader at any point during your rush.
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DG

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 09:24:08 am »
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I suppose we'll have to wait for a clarification whether you put the gained silver on top of your deck or in the discard pile when revealing a trader against a sea hag attack. If you put it on top of your deck then it's no wonder the traders can beat sea hags!
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Davio

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 09:38:54 am »
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I suppose we'll have to wait for a clarification whether you put the gained silver on top of your deck or in the discard pile when revealing a trader against a sea hag attack. If you put it on top of your deck then it's no wonder the traders can beat sea hags!
I think it's supposed to go on your deck, since it just replaces the other card. I think in the same fashion you could buy something with Royal Seal, replace it with a Silver and put it on top of your deck. Or have both this and Watchtower in hand! Your opponent plays a Witch, you reveal Trader first and WT later and get a Silver on top. :D

I think it's fun with Bureaucrat, because it's so moot. Same with Explorer.

How about having some sort of Silversmith and using Treasure Maps to gain Silvers instead of Golds?  ::)
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 09:40:31 am »
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Border Village seems like it's kind of the "okay, you overshot your $5 target by 1" consolation prize.  "Here, take a Village for only $1 more!"  Assuming you don't want a Gold, and in all fairness there are lots of times when I'll spend $6 on a $5 Action.  It seems... fine, but probably not essential?

Could be pretty good with Remodel on the board.  Spend $6, get a Border Village and a Remodel, then you've got a handy $6 target to Remodel into a Province.



Traders:  I think people are perhaps underestimating it.  The opportunity to slam 4 or 5 Silver at a time into your deck in the early game seems amazing.  It does seem to result in your having to play Big Money, but perhaps other Hinterland cards do interesting things with Silver?

It would be interesting to see Traders on the table with Peddler.  It...  probably isn't good?  Like, it seems hard to imagine a deck that could rapidly get Peddler, get Traders, and get Traders and Peddler in the same hand.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 09:44:03 am by Epoch »
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guided

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 09:43:46 am »
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No, you don't put it on top of your deck. The Silver goes into your discard pile just like any other gained card, unless you have something (like a Watchtower) that can put it elsewhere.

People who say you don't want lots of Silvers, man, that is only true (in a Province game) if you are building an engine. Trader isn't like some big sexy card or anything, but Silvers are basically pure goodness on action-poor boards without Colonies. That said I suspect that (unless Geronimoo made some error in testing Trader as an opener in his simulation) it will not be a particularly strong card unless you have plans for the reaction effect. This doesn't surprise me much since the opportunity cost is pretty high of having it in hand instead of a Silver you could have bought instead. One possible suggestion for simulation: never use it to trash Copper unless that $1 was not useful this turn.

Also anybody who says "oh, Border Village is OK I guess if there's a $5 terminal you want," are we talking about the same game? $5 terminals are like the most important class of power cards in Dominion, and even if there isn't one, there are also lots of great $4 terminals that benefit from good Village density.
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mborda

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 09:49:54 am »
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Border Village:
If there's a Talisman in play: I buy a Border Village, gain a Smithy and gain a second one. Great! Question: 2 Bridges, Play a Talisman, buy a BV, get 2, so I get 4 Smithies, right?

Why would you gain 2 Smithies in the first case? Talisman says "when you buy a card". You're not buying Smithy, so no other copy is gained. Buying implies gaining but gaining doesn't imply buying.

So in both cases I think you'd gain 1 Smithy per BV. You do get 2 BV and 2 Smithies with Talisman and 2 Bridges.
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Epoch

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 09:53:15 am »
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Also anybody who says "oh, Border Village is OK I guess if there's a $5 terminal you want," are we talking about the same game? $5 terminals are like the most important class of power cards in Dominion, and even if there isn't one, there are also lots of great $4 terminals that benefit from good Village density.

It seems to me like Border Village is weirdly obviously powerful, but also inessential.  By which I mean:

You're absolutely right that there are TONS of boards where if you get $6, the completely obvious thing to do will be to buy Border Village.  But...  that's if you get $6.  It seems like you can't count on BV for all your Village needs, because it's so hard to consistently get to $6 in the early game.

Like, say BV is on the table with Mountebank and Bridge and Merchant Ship.  If you get $6, you'll almost certainly forgo Gold for BV->Mountebank or Bridge or Merchant Ship, sure.  But is that going to change your strategy on this board?  Are you going to be comfortable buying additional terminal $4s and $5s when you actually draw $4 or $5, on the assumption that you'll have enough BVs to prevent collisions?  Because it doesn't SEEM to me like that would be a good assumption to make.

It seems most likely to me that BV is going to most actually impact your STRATEGY when there's another, lower-cost Village on the table.  So you know you can reliably pick up Villages if you need them, and also sneak in a bit of extra Village density when you overshoot $5.
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rinkworks

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 09:59:52 am »
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I suppose we'll have to wait for a clarification whether you put the gained silver on top of your deck or in the discard pile when revealing a trader against a sea hag attack. If you put it on top of your deck then it's no wonder the traders can beat sea hags!
I think it's supposed to go on your deck, since it just replaces the other card. I think in the same fashion you could buy something with Royal Seal, replace it with a Silver and put it on top of your deck. Or have both this and Watchtower in hand! Your opponent plays a Witch, you reveal Trader first and WT later and get a Silver on top. :D

Jeff Wolfe clarified this in the BGG forum thread.  The gained Silver goes in your discard pile (unless something else, like a Watchtower in hand, intervenes).  I guess the logic is that the Silver doesn't replace the card you gain; rather, the instruction "gain a Silver" replaces the other "gain" instruction.
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Qvist

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 10:01:41 am »
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Border Village:
If there's a Talisman in play: I buy a Border Village, gain a Smithy and gain a second one. Great! Question: 2 Bridges, Play a Talisman, buy a BV, get 2, so I get 4 Smithies, right?

Why would you gain 2 Smithies in the first case? Talisman says "when you buy a card". You're not buying Smithy, so no other copy is gained. Buying implies gaining but gaining doesn't imply buying.

So in both cases I think you'd gain 1 Smithy per BV. You do get 2 BV and 2 Smithies with Talisman and 2 Bridges.

I think you're absolutely right. I hadn't the card text of Talisman right in mind.

guided

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 10:08:01 am »
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It seems most likely to me that BV is going to most actually impact your STRATEGY when there's another, lower-cost Village on the table.  So you know you can reliably pick up Villages if you need them, and also sneak in a bit of extra Village density when you overshoot $5.
This is a plausible guess to me, though I wouldn't give it more than a 50/50 chance of being true. I will need some experience with the card to get a sense of how often it is a cornerstone of a strategy. FWIW I think when it appears with Torturer at least that no other Villages are going to be necessary.

Consider that you can potentially pursue an alternate early-game strategy for engine building, where you aim for $6 (by some means) instead of snapping up engine cards right away. I do not know without trying how strong this could be. Consider also that you can buy extra terminals with $5 or less, then gain non-terminals (or Silvers) on future Border Village buys.
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play2draw

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 10:22:31 am »
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Trader can be used in interesting ways. For example, opening Trader/Chapel: trash your cards without abandon, then use Trader on Chapel; no need to spend a few turns buying a few silvers. And as Davio suggested, this could be an amazing Gardens card. Also, this is a very strong counter to Witch, in that the card can help you buy more witches (assuming you're lucky enough to get cursed with a Trader in hand)... perhaps it's the best card on the table when you open 4/3 and your opponent opens 5/2.

Border Village looks neat for building silly engines. I'd love to buy these when Wharf is in the kingdom.

Hinterlands looks like fun  ;D
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Geronimoo

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 10:30:09 am »
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My simulator plays it right: the Curse from Sea Hag is replaced by Silver which is NOT gained on top of the deck. So it really is a very strong counter against Sea Hag. Here are some end decks from the Trader strategy against Sea Hag:

Trader(Plr 1) has 44 points and took 30 turns
   46 cards : [1 Copper, 21 Silver, 7 Gold, 4 Estate, 2 Duchy, 6 Province, 2 Curse, 3 Trader]

Trader(Plr 1) has 48 points and took 24 turns
   41 cards : [7 Copper, 12 Silver, 5 Gold, 4 Estate, 3 Duchy, 6 Province, 1 Curse, 3 Trader]

Trader(Plr 1) has 31 points and took 31 turns
   50 cards : [2 Copper, 24 Silver, 5 Gold, 3 Estate, 5 Duchy, 3 Province, 5 Curse, 3 Trader]

About 1 time in 10 the Silver pile is emptied...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: So the new Hinterlands cards are coming out... thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 10:35:12 am »
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I LOVE these new cards. Big money is back in business? Is it? Maybe? Actually, Border Village maybe says no. But it maybe says yes, too - very board dependent.
And guided is totally right - silver is a great card in province games, unless you have some really elaborate engine. People get way too stuck on "Beyond Silver", which is a nice article that people take way too far, thinking that silver is actually bad for most decks. The vast majority of decks benefit from more silver, people; the issue is opportunity cost. And if you have enough silver, you don't NEED a really elaborate engine - or golds. That you necessarily need golds for BM is a myth, though getting the requisite silver density is usually not so easy.
But I want to point out something about traders nobody has yet; it combos really really well with like any source of plus buy. Woodcutter + Traders, here we go - okay, that might be a little bit of a stretch (though I imagine it outperforms just BM traders, which isn't something you can say about lots of cards together with woodcutters). Point is, every extra buy you don't use is a silver, and that's really good. Goons and Traders, yes please. Heck, market and traders is pretty salty.
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