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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 194701 times)

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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1250 on: July 02, 2013, 11:06:28 am »

Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.

But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.

I don't actually think Ashersky is scum.  I think he is over confident.  But your saying you agree when a minute ago you didn't, is very similar what you did with TA and with mail-mi.  I think you may well be scum.  VOTE: Eevee

PPE: I typed this before seeing that Eevee voted for me.

Looking back over the two votes you had previously, this is the one that stuck in my mind.  AHoppy's case seems to be a scum-pairs case.  It's also long.  I'm pretty sure I glossed it.

The argument to me sounds like you switched from disagreement to agreement in 3 cases.  (here and 2 previous).
I don't remember the mail-mi incident at all.

TA went scum-read to town-read from you (this I remember).  I haven't heard a lot of pressure regarding TwistedArcher since that time, and I remember several people pushing back against the idea of a TA lynch because of his activity.  (I could be wrong here, it was a while ago in the scheme of what's happened).  I don't know how those line up without rereading, but that was the gist of it for me.

Now, I read this and just took it for granted (as I said, judged the case not the player), and assumed that efhw was saying this was the same.  Of course, it was happening then, and I felt like public opinion was against efhw rather than ashersky, so it seemed like you changed your tune to that of least resistance.

Looking back, it seems like it may just have been ashersky/mail-mi pushing the efhw case, efhw defending, and approximately no one else talking.  (raerae said some stuff, but it was unrelated).

That was the case I was voting for.  The validity of that case is fairly in question.  If anyone with better memory/more time wants to illuminate on these that'd be cool.

Side Note: I think if AHoppy was really saying "anyone but me!" he'd have voted for efhw.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1251 on: July 02, 2013, 11:14:12 am »

theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1252 on: July 02, 2013, 11:19:12 am »

Here's a fun (and hopefully helpful) exercise.

So we do have a flip already! We know that Spiritbears is town. Even though that wagon never got even close to lynching, I think it will be useful to analyze people's opinions on Spiritbears.

#447 TA makes original case on SB, votes (also has many many posts pushing the case. I'm not going to list them all, but I was frequently and consistently pushing the case).
#453 Theorel says he finds Spiritbears scummy for "adding fuel to the fire"
#466 Xeiron thinks Spiritbears is town
#468 EFHW has a townread on Spiritbears
#485 Eevee says this has all the makings of a mislynch
#495 Nkirbit sheeps Eevee's view from #485
#520 Ashersky says "SB looks pretty towny out of all of this"
#522 mail-mi says that "SB does seem a little different"
#630 Ahoppy thinks that SB looks pretty scummy
#648 Nkirbit votes SB. "Mainly for the aggresiveness"
#673 Chairs says there's likely one scum in SB/TA, votes TA
#748 Shraeye says SB is a foreground player, doesn't want to lynch a foreground player
#750 Raerae says SB's reaction is similar to the game-that-shall-not-be-named
#844 Eevee: "I'm not against spirit lynch, I'm actually very null on him come to think of it.. which is a scum trait, ding ding."
#845 Ashersky: "I'm neutral on sb. Could go either way."

The three players who had their opinions change over time on Spiritbears were Nkirbit, Eevee, and Ashersky.

Nkirbit went from agreeing that the Spiritbears lynch had all the makings of to voting him. He stated, in his vote, that it was less due to a read, and more due to the fact that he disliked SB's aggressiveness. That's not why he should be voting someone, probably, but if it's true, I don't think the switch makes Nkirbit too scummy.

Eevee's flip-flop on SB was the most problematic, to me. Early on, he  proclaimed "this has all the makings of a mislynch!"
However, by #844, when I pressure people for their views on the case, he actually comes back with a scummier read on Spiritbears, clearly no longer thinking it was a mislynch. Now, this may very well be due to the fact that he went from a scum-read to a town-read on myself, making my case less "dangerous" in his eyes, but this is still a pretty noticeable switch on Eevee's part.

Ashersky's flip is almost the same as Eevee's flip. Once again, it may be due to the fact that he initially found SB towny due to a scum-read on Eevee, and Eevee proclaiming SB as towny. As his scum read on Eevee lessened (I think it lessened, at least?), this could also move SB from a town read to a null read.

There's the people who proclaimed SB towny (and were correct): Raerae, Shraeye, xeiron, EFHW. Now, if these people were scum, they KNEW SB was town. But I don't think SB was in any serious danger of getting lynched at any point, so I think some of these people may have stepped in to help push along the lynch, if necessary. So a get a townier read from these people.

Theorel and Ahoppy and mail-mi said that they found SB anywhere from "a little different" to "scummy". These people are more suspicious than the previous group -- they could have seen an easy mislynch, and wanted to help push it along. Notable, though, is that none of these people actually put a vote down. I find these people more suspicious than the previous group, but less suspicious than Eevee and Ashersky.

I think Eevee and Ashersky come off scummiest from this wagon, due to their changes on SB, despite the fact that the only thing SB was doing was refusing to defend himself, again and again (to be fair, I found this scummy as well).

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1253 on: July 02, 2013, 11:23:54 am »

Chairs should also be included in the group finding SB towny.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1254 on: July 02, 2013, 11:27:17 am »

Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1255 on: July 02, 2013, 11:31:31 am »

Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.

Oh, absolutely. He /outed soon afterwards, anyways, so you didn't really have a chance.

Why did you start having doubts? It's not like his view changed, and he was defending himself aggressively and not answering my questions but he'd been doing that all along
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1256 on: July 02, 2013, 11:34:19 am »

theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.

Well, my choices are:
efhw: bad case
ahoppy: null case
eevee: questionable case.

Honestly, I don't like any of the options presented.  I want to lynch Xeiron.  But there's not enough support there.  Questionable is the best option there (IMO).

I will try to reread by the end of the day, but we need to move the day forward, so I'm choosing from what I see as viable lynches in order to do so.

Let's try a different tack.  Why do you think efhw is scum?  (The only thing I've seen as an argument is that ashersky is irrationally tunneling her, therefore she must be scum.)
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1257 on: July 02, 2013, 11:39:37 am »

Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.

Oh, absolutely. He /outed soon afterwards, anyways, so you didn't really have a chance.

Why did you start having doubts? It's not like his view changed, and he was defending himself aggressively and not answering my questions but he'd been doing that all along
I think his posting slowed down a lot, and I didn't see any new towny looking content in them.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1258 on: July 02, 2013, 11:44:11 am »

For theorel: I get that the case is questionable, but please answer this. What exactly is the case, in your words?

Since you're voting Eevee for agreeing with the case on him, can you remind me what the case on Eevee is?

I'd like to hear it from you, and not from anyone else. I get that you're pushing a vote through because we NEED a lynch (and I 100% agree), but I'm not convinced that you actually know what the case is (or that anyone's made a true case on Eevee yet). There's been lots of little scummy things, I agree, but what specifically gives you a scum read / makes you ok with lynching Eevee?
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1259 on: July 02, 2013, 11:47:25 am »

theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.

Well, my choices are:
efhw: bad case
ahoppy: null case
eevee: questionable case.

Honestly, I don't like any of the options presented.  I want to lynch Xeiron.  But there's not enough support there.  Questionable is the best option there (IMO).

I will try to reread by the end of the day, but we need to move the day forward, so I'm choosing from what I see as viable lynches in order to do so.

Let's try a different tack.  Why do you think efhw is scum?  (The only thing I've seen as an argument is that ashersky is irrationally tunneling her, therefore she must be scum.)
Calling the case on me questionable is mighty generous though. How about Eevee: "Lynching him for something he thinks he hasn't done without looking back to check who is right". I'm not even sure anyone but you is claiming my changes of hearts have been due to the popular opinion!

I know we look for different things, I don't believe going after egregiously scummy things is the way to catch scum day 1 (or ever). EFHW has been on the spotlight a lot, but not entirely by her choice. Mostly her reactions to ashersky's tunneling haven't felt heartfelt to me, it's a feeling thing. Well, and her in my opinion unreasonable suspicion of me might be clouding my judgement. Fwiw I actually started having doubts about that lynch too last night, but I'm starting to think it's just too late and I hate changing my vote all the time without being able to sufficiently explain why it's happening.

Ultimately, we do need to lynch someone, I can't just start building a shraeye or theorel case anymore, I don't like the xeiron lynch, have quite equal opinion of ahoppy and EFHW and obviously very much oppose lynching Eevee.
I'm actually having misgivings about that too (:))
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1260 on: July 02, 2013, 11:48:05 am »

Scratch that last line, it shouldn't be there!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1261 on: July 02, 2013, 11:52:00 am »

I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point.  It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?

scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew!  I got them off my back"

town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."

But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why?  Because he's scum!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1262 on: July 02, 2013, 11:52:36 am »

I'd claim that, Eevee (that your changes of heart have been suspicious)
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1263 on: July 02, 2013, 11:53:02 am »

Being a a small presence is in line with how xeiron has played town before.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1264 on: July 02, 2013, 11:57:07 am »

I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point.  It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?

scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew!  I got them off my back"

town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."

But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why?  Because he's scum!

His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1265 on: July 02, 2013, 12:00:16 pm »

I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point.  It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?

scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew!  I got them off my back"

town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."

But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why?  Because he's scum!

His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!

Ugh.  I don't want to pick a wagon with a player that I think will flip scum 33% of the time when there's a player that I think will flip scum 90% of the time, but you're probably right.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1266 on: July 02, 2013, 12:09:43 pm »

I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point.  It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?

scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew!  I got them off my back"

town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."

But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why?  Because he's scum!

His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!

Ugh.  I don't want to pick a wagon with a player that I think will flip scum 33% of the time when there's a player that I think will flip scum 90% of the time, but you're probably right.

I understand, but there's enough people who think Xeiron is town that his lynch isn't going to go through. We really need this day to end, and if Xeiron isn't getting lynched (which I don't think he is), your vote being parked there doesn't help us out at all.
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chairs

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1267 on: July 02, 2013, 12:44:00 pm »

Chairs, you're the dispenser of the paper. Do you believe Xeiron?

Obviously we can't trust Xeiron 100%, but I'm willing to see what happens with this part of the plan.  I don't agree with the no-lynch overall, though, so I'm still considering whom to lynch.

Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about.  Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far?  Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.

LIGHTHOUSE AVATAR = 1000% SCUMREAD LYNCH TWICE  ;D  I'm again stuck between "man, it kind of feels like ashersky might be scumtunneling" and "man, EFHW is really caught off-kilter on this, is it because it's scum desperately trying to get onto another wagon".  I'm almost tempted to suggest a slight townread for both and that this is some heavy TvT action, because they both seem so genuine (EFHW slightly less so, but I'm somewhat chalking that up to being on the defense).

He asked for two no-lynches, remember.  So scum gets two free passes.  I don't like that about the plan, and absolutely think we don't follow the plan.

So we lynch today, we lynch tomorrow.  We don't lynch X.  I don't think anyone should give him pen/paper, either.
I think the two no-lynches are not a good idea.  Lynching seems to only hurt xeiron's plan if it's the paper giver, the pen giver, or xeiron hiimself.  Well I'm not going to lynch xeiron, I won't lynch chairs, and I think the risk of hitting pen-giver out of the remaining is worth the chance to hit scum.

If I have control of pen/paper, I will absolutely give it to xeiron.  I don't understand why you want to not lynch xeiron, but you also don't want to let him try his plan by giving him paper/pen.

I agree with shraeye and ashersky that the no-lynch idea seems risky at best, but ashersky makes a kind of scummy motion here saying "we shouldn't lynch X, but we shouldn't give him this stuff".  Either he's town (and we want to accommodate him) or he's scum (and we don't).  If he's scum, why not lynch?  I don't get it (so in this situation I'm in agreement with shraeye).

====

I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing.  However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose.  I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.

EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1268 on: July 02, 2013, 12:56:52 pm »

I only have a minute here, so I'll summarize that my case on Eevee is for hopping on my wagon.  That is also the reason mail-mi is my second choice.  This isn't just because it's my wagon.  It's because I think it was opportunistic.  I also notice him OMGUS'ing both me and Theorel.  When I have more time I'll go into more detail about the switches on mail-mi and TA.
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Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1269 on: July 02, 2013, 01:03:31 pm »

Vote Count 1.12
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel
AHoppy (3) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher
No Lynch (1) xeiron

Not Voting: (1) chairs

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch; 6 to no-lynch
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:06:21 pm by Archetype »
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1270 on: July 02, 2013, 01:07:15 pm »

You can check out this summary and use it to find the relevant areas of the thread for many of Eevee's TA and mail-mi posts.

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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1271 on: July 02, 2013, 03:37:46 pm »

Ugh, I do agree with shraeye that we should vote a lurker, and would rather lynch Ahoppy than either Eevee or EFHW, but I have one major reservation about this lynch that makes me uncomfortable.  It has to do with the leaked info from his one post... it was info that town would more likely have than scum.  I know this is really vague, and I can elaborate, but don't think I should at this point.

I have a town read on Eevee, so won't be voting there.

EFHW I'm still null on.  I not as convinced as Ash that it was a scum slip, but it could be.  And that's really all I have on EFHW.  And she's not a lurker.

I really am torn between the two of them.  I know I said I would choose Ahoppy earlier, but I have a serious reservation, and I don't have one about EFHW.  On the surface, I agree that Ahoppy has been lurking more and has not been scumhunting much.  Basically, I have reasons to lynch ahoppy and a decent reason to not lynch ahoppy, but not much on EFHW at all, so I'm unsure of what to do.

I think the tie-breaker is going to have to be that I have the same feeling here that I had about EFHW in Shakespeare:  No clue.  In Shakespeare it turned out she was scum.  I'm going to hope the same is true here if we end up on this lynch.

Vote:  EFHW
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1272 on: July 02, 2013, 03:41:02 pm »

And before I go away, here's your next scheduled thought on why I think Xeiron is scummy!

So far, the items we have claimed in the game are lens (from SB), paper (from Chairs), and Phonograph (which SB received).  These are either versatile items that could be used a number of ways, or items that are "already constructed" and seem to have an obvious use.

Xeiron claims that he has reason to believe there's a pen in the game.  What the heck can you do with a pen, other than combine it with paper?  It's neither versatile nor does it have a use alone, I'm guessing.  If the objects we have appear to be either versatile items that can be used to construct a number of different things, which lens and paper are, or already constructed machines, like phonograph, then why is a pen in the game?  What possible use can it have other than pen + paper?  It doesn't seem to fit.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1273 on: July 02, 2013, 03:47:32 pm »

I agree that we should end the day as soon as possible. And I think the best way to do so would be to no-lynch.
Some of you have stated consern over no-lynching to days in a row. I still insist that this is a good idea, but if I had to choose one, a no-lynch today is more important.

Part of my problem with lynching someone today is because I think we are heading towards a mislynch and I think a mislynch would be bad today. In the votecount below I see one no-lynch wagon and four town wagons. I could of course be wrong about that, but do not think it is worth the risk to lynch any of them.

Vote Count 1.12
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel
AHoppy (3) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher
No Lynch (1) xeiron

Not Voting: (1) chairs

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch; 6 to no-lynch


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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #1274 on: July 02, 2013, 03:54:04 pm »

Xeiron:  If you want a no-lynch because all of the wagons are bad, what wagons do you think would be good?
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