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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192174 times)

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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #950 on: July 01, 2013, 12:52:22 am »

This doesn't look like a scumslip to me.  Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics?  It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.

I disagree.  That's all.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #951 on: July 01, 2013, 12:54:25 am »

So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him?  Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
I agree with this.  mail-mi asked a possibly identical or at least super-similar question in...was is MeanGirls or RMM7.  I don't remember, but it was one of those games I was a mod for, and mail-mi was town in both.  The resemblence immediately feels suspicious.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #952 on: July 01, 2013, 01:08:03 am »

Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
Eevee, who is the 'we' you are talking about here?
Sorry, my english gets really bad when I'm tired. I'm still the same person! Me me me.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #953 on: July 01, 2013, 05:12:36 am »

Quote from: EFHW link=todhow t 8002.msg263808#msg263808 date=1372648412
sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it.  We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!

Second!
Yes, this!
Sorry. I'm trying to catch up. And I really really really hate to pull a robz but I don't trust my reads prior to my meltdown. I need to reevaluate.  But from whst so have reread so far (damn this toooooooooo many pages!), I still read efhw and Raerse as town and I don't buy the case in Eevee...he seems like town!eevee to me.  Nk sheeping TA's reads worries me, and I want to trust ash....but am scared of being burned again...this could easily be scum!ash leading us down a path of self destruction
Shrae...so don't get why TA and Nk  continue to bag on me for this...early in The game, I see his pushing a weak case as a problem and I vote it and call him out....I just dont see how that's scummy....I'm not going off the hook here, but that case is still a bad one on me and nk and TA should have to answer for pushing it....
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #954 on: July 01, 2013, 05:16:58 am »

This doesn't look like a scumslip to me.  Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics?  It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.

I disagree.  That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up!  That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2013, 05:24:18 am »

Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg263833#msg263833 positive 2651431
I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(

I've got nothing.  If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.

Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.

Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #956 on: July 01, 2013, 05:37:11 am »

Ahoppy:  For a while, I had him as my top scumread.  He was around, but engaged only in theory talk, and would give reads soon after players started to pile pressure on him for not having many reads.  I went back and re-read him in Mean Girls, where he was town, and his play was pretty similar to here.  He was slightly more active here, but in Mean Girls he didn't build cases anymore.  His actions here fit with his actions in mean girls.  I'm still slightly worried, as he has been active here, but much less so than before.  Slight scum read.

Ashersky:  He's been very protown, but I think he might be able to fake that well.  He certainly faked it well when he was a watcher in mean girls (Note:  Wasn't actually a watcher in mean girls).  I recently have issues with differences between how he pursued mail-mi's lynch, but was reluctant to do the same with Xeiron, despite them having very similar metas and similar cases.  If Xeiron eventually flips scum, or mail-mi town, this would be something to keep in mind.  I also am uncomfortable with how he found Mail-mi scummy for reacting to his jokes about watching in mean girls... it seems like it could have been a trap.  But, Xeiron hasn't flipped scum, and mail-mi hasn't flipped town, and he has been a leading force in moving the game forward, so for now, a slightly town read.

Chairs:  Very towny.  I think his claim is newbie town.  See my post #668 if you want more in-depth reasoning.  Big town read.

Eevee:  He defended SB, who I think is slightly scummy, and mail-mi, who I don't think is that scummy.  He defended from Ashersky well, and had good answers to all his points.  He's been very open and pro-town, and I have no reason to think that's a facade at this point.  Town read.

EFHW:  Not really a strong opinion here.  Her early argument with Shraeye is a null on both sides to me.  I actually can't remember her specific views.. perhaps a re-read is in order soon.  Null for now.

Mail-Mi:  Has done a few things that have been scummy (the flip-flop on Eevee, asking who to reread), but I don't actually have a huge concern here.  The biggest thing is the inconsistent explanation of his vote for Eevee, which was just really odd.  He was voting Eevee for inactivity, moved off to ash, revoted for Eevee for inactivity and "feeling off" or something like that, then explaining his vote as being purely for inactivity.  It's inconsistent, for sure.

The Eevee thing is all I really have serious problems with.  I wouldn't be shocked if he were scum, but I think we can do better.
Slight scum read.

Raerae:  Not much recently at all.  My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town.  Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with,

Shraeye:  Not much recently either!  I had a null-read on him before, and still don't have any reason to think he's scum or town.  It is important to note that he was the first one to put us on the track towards lynching inactive players, and at the time gave a list of players that he would not consider lynching.  As players start flipping, I think we should keep in mind the categories he listed players as and see if we can detect any patterns.  Null read.

Spiritbears:  His main stance this game was supporting EFHW as towny as Shraeye as scummy.  If I'm remembering correctly, the only stated reason for supporting EFHW is that she was saying a lot of things he agreed with.  This SB-EFHW connection is something to keep in mind.  What's odd here for SB is that I don't at all know why Shraeye is (was?) a scum-read for him.  He never gave us a reason!  He put some effort into pushing Shraeye, for example asking Theorel if he was okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case.  Placing a vote on someone, pushing for it, but never explaining why you think that player is scummy is off, and scummy.

I don't at all buy the argument that SB's aggressive defense is towny, either.  People say that the last time he did this, he was town... well, yeah, but as town he has also not been this aggressive.  I think it's possible that SB could be aggressive when pushed regardless of alignment when pushed.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the defense here, but I don't buy it as of now.  Scum read.

Theorel:  Missing for so long.  Was dead null before his absence, and even more null now.  As null as it gets.

TwistedArcher:  Initially, I had a feeling that he was "off".  But looking back, I'm not 100% sure why.  He drove a case fairly hard against SB, which is exactly the same thing he did Day1 in Shakespeare against myself, Day2 in Pirates against mail-mi, etc.  He may or may not be right, but town!TA builds cases like that.  He's asking good questions, participating actively, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he says lately.  I don't have any reasons to think he's scum at this point.  Town read.

Xeiron:  I think how he responded to Ash's case on raerae by voting raerae was scummy.  He made so many assumptions when giving his reasoning.. that ash *might* be a town member who *might* be insinuating that he *might* have info on raerae.  What??  And then he comes on and gives Theorel's math a challenge, that's also bad and appears like he didn't impartially read the post.

My only concern is the 12 post thing.  This is my least favorite part about forum mafia.. when you play in real life, everyone is there, and you can ask them anything at any time.  Here, we have to play around people's availabilities, and participation is very self-driven.  I think it is quite possible that town!Xeiron is disinterested.  But I still think we have a better case on him than anyone else, and he's my preferred lynch.  Scum read.
So you bang on people for supporting me beause I'm a "slight scum read", but then your analysis of me is that I'm totally scummy (based on TA's false claim I had no reason to vote shraeye)?!
This has the markings of scum msnipulation.However, I agree with lynching background players day one and despite my scum reads of you and TA, I'm not going to vote to lynch either one day one because I don't think either is background (although nk is close)
unvote (if I havemt already)
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #957 on: July 01, 2013, 05:39:58 am »

So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him?  Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
I agree with this.  mail-mi asked a possibly identical or at least super-similar question in...was is MeanGirls or RMM7.  I don't remember, but it was one of those games I was a mod for, and mail-mi was town in both.  The resemblence immediately feels suspicious.
It was mean girls...and right before we mislynched him when his lynch  was all but assured. I'm sure he wants us remembering that!
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #958 on: July 01, 2013, 06:25:42 am »

I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch

I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.

Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today.  For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.

Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #959 on: July 01, 2013, 08:53:20 am »

My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request.  (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #960 on: July 01, 2013, 08:56:19 am »

Wow, this thread was busy over the weekend.

I'm generally less available over the weekend.  Sometimes I get an hour here or there, sometimes not (depends on who puts the boy down for his nap...)  This weekend I was on a little on Saturday but not much was going on, and I didn't have anything to say.

I just read the ~14 pages, and am trying to synthesize it.  Would love to see a vote count...

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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #961 on: July 01, 2013, 09:07:03 am »

My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request.  (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....

I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #962 on: July 01, 2013, 09:17:46 am »

Unofficial Vote Count
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
Twistedarcher (1) chairs
xeiron (4) shraeye, mail-mi, nkirbit, raerae
spiritbears (1) Twistedarcher
efhw (1) ashersky
No Lynch (1)  xeiron

Not Voting: (1) AHoppy, spiritbears, Eevee
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #963 on: July 01, 2013, 10:16:14 am »

My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request.  (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....

I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.

If X hadn't posted I would be voting him now.  But I'm not sure what to do with this latest set of posts.  It's a weird reaction to the wagon that's developed on him, in words he's ignoring it.  But he's essentially saying, "hey guys, leave me alive until I can communicate my super-secret awesome plan to someone else."  Which would mean leaving him alive until tomorrow night (since he'd need to develop communication ability which would not be usable until the following night, unless I'm misunderstanding the mechanics).  I'm always somewhat hesitant to take any plan that only works when scum is unaware of it at face value.  (They may need to be unaware of the people involved, such as who the cop is, but generally a good plan can withstand scum being aware of the plan).  Yeah, if anything this seems survivalist, I'm going to move forward with the vote.

Oh, and I think I finally understand my scum-read.  It's not significant, but he basically called me out for not scumhunting, in the midst of a post where I was trying to understand player interactions, due to a calculation that I made.  Meanwhile, he was NOT scumhunting (except arguably by pointing out a supposed scumslip I made).  I understand that different players have different approaches, but his calling me out on it seems insincere given his own lack of any apparent scumhunting, excepting a couple town reads.  He says raerae isn't his strongest scum-read, but I have yet to see a scum-read from him (other than a problem with my post, when I was previously a town-read for him...not sure if I switched to a scum-read, he didn't really specify).  In short, Xeiron seems more interested in challenging others for failing to scumhunt than scumhunting himself.

Vote: Xeiron
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #964 on: July 01, 2013, 10:58:00 am »

I dont think xeiron is mafia. If this is a scum ploy, man, it's very clever, but it sounds very genuine. I'm not sure I agree with his plan and support nolynching though, seems like a huge leap of faith.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #965 on: July 01, 2013, 11:45:58 am »

Yeah I'm not down with nolynch.  Even if it's me on the block
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #966 on: July 01, 2013, 12:22:51 pm »

Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg263833#msg263833 positive 2651431
I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(

I've got nothing.  If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.

Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.

Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...

Spiritbears, I get that the case seems obviously incorrect to you (it should if you're town!), but the thing is, if you're town, no other town member knows that! You have to prove to us that we're town, since we have as much reason to suspect you as anymore else in the game. Calling the case pathetic, without answer the question, does nothing to appease the case itself, and in most cases is more likely to make people think it's more likely that you are indeed scum.

I have been pushing your case (I would argue that I'm being aggressive) because you have yet to answer my questions, which I have made directly at you, instead arguing that my case is obviously wrong. To me, it's not obviously wrong! Even if you think I'm being ridiculous, terribly wrong, and misguided in accusing you, which of course is a possibility, you have a vested interest in trying to convince me that I'm wrong, and showing me where and why I'm wrong. Just saying my case is ridiculous and pathetic doesn't do this, in any way. If you really are town, you are doing nothing to discredit the case by simply calling it wrong -- you have to prove to me, and to everyone else, WHY it's wrong.

Until you answer these questions, I will continue to have a scum read on you, and continue to push for your lynch. I thought you were scummy when I made the case, even if it's a D1 case and not the strongest one, and I will continue to think you are scummy until I have a good reason not to. Continually calling my case weak is not a good reason to give you a more towny read -- it's something that you would do as both scum and town, in my opinion.

The questions I'd like answered:

Why did you have a town read on EFHW?
Why did you support her point of view over Shraeye in the EFHW / Shraeye argument?
What are your current reads on both EFHW and Shraeye?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #967 on: July 01, 2013, 12:23:15 pm »

I would argue that I'm NOT being aggressive**
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #968 on: July 01, 2013, 12:33:48 pm »

I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch

I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.

Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today.  For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.

Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?

1) I am 100% against no-lynch. I would lynch anyone else in the game over no-lynch.

2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
ii) If you are not able to execute this 'plan' yourself, since you need to be able to write someone, are you sure that two people will be able to execute the plan?
iii) There's the chance that you write scum during the night, give away a LOT of information, and your plan will fail, since you're depending on scum to execute it.
iv) You simply may be misunderstanding your role, the setup information, your item, combinations, etc. etc. etc. I don't know how you could possibly have enough information to have a plan that will win town the game D1. I know I certainly don't, and I highly doubt that there's a foolproof plan that will win the game. I don't know if you seriously think there is one (you certainly went overboard on the speculation in Shakespeare), but I'm pretty sure that there's no "plan" you could possibly make D1 to hand town a certain win.

3) As to whether this makes you scummy...ugh, I don't know. If you ARE scum, giving you pen and paper certainly doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world, provided that all it does is let you send a message (which would seem obvious). But, the real upside for you, is that you survive, and if we let you survive on the basis of this 'plan', you'll survive the lynch tomorrow, as well.

This is either a gambit by scum, or overspeculation by a townmember. Given that we JUST lynched Xeiron D1 for overspeculation as a townmember in a RMM game...I'd lean the second. But he could know this, and is doing the same again now. I don't know, this lessens my read a bit, but I think I'd still lynch Xeiron up against a deadline.

Can't we just lynch Spiritbears instead?
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #969 on: July 01, 2013, 12:34:25 pm »

Xeiron, how much of your plan is based on knowledge, and how much is based on speculation? Can you give us a rough estimate here?
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #970 on: July 01, 2013, 12:36:10 pm »

My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request.  (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....

What's your read on Xeiron, SB? Would you be okay lynching him?
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #971 on: July 01, 2013, 12:38:32 pm »

Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg263833#msg263833 positive 2651431
I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(

I've got nothing.  If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.

Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.

Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...

Spiritbears, I get that the case seems obviously incorrect to you (it should if you're town!), but the thing is, if you're town, no other town member knows that! You have to prove to us that we're town, since we have as much reason to suspect you as anymore else in the game. Calling the case pathetic, without answer the question, does nothing to appease the case itself, and in most cases is more likely to make people think it's more likely that you are indeed scum.

I have been pushing your case (I would argue that I'm being aggressive) because you have yet to answer my questions, which I have made directly at you, instead arguing that my case is obviously wrong. To me, it's not obviously wrong! Even if you think I'm being ridiculous, terribly wrong, and misguided in accusing you, which of course is a possibility, you have a vested interest in trying to convince me that I'm wrong, and showing me where and why I'm wrong. Just saying my case is ridiculous and pathetic doesn't do this, in any way. If you really are town, you are doing nothing to discredit the case by simply calling it wrong -- you have to prove to me, and to everyone else, WHY it's wrong.

Until you answer these questions, I will continue to have a scum read on you, and continue to push for your lynch. I thought you were scummy when I made the case, even if it's a D1 case and not the strongest one, and I will continue to think you are scummy until I have a good reason not to. Continually calling my case weak is not a good reason to give you a more towny read -- it's something that you would do as both scum and town, in my opinion.

The questions I'd like answered:

Why did you have a town read on EFHW?
Why did you support her point of view over Shraeye in the EFHW / Shraeye argument?
What are your current reads on both EFHW and Shraeye?
I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake.  It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
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Postpunk Noisegazr Shoegazing Punks [whathe]Spirit Bears on Faith Cannon Records.  confusing and confounding since 05

spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #972 on: July 01, 2013, 12:42:00 pm »

My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request.  (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....

What's your read on Xeiron, SB? Would you be okay lynching him?
Why don't you answer that question?
Lots of questions from you...very little in the way of reads
I'm uncertain of x...his latest manuever seems desperate but weird. Maybe weird town. I would be more in favor of ahop, but I'm willing to listen on x (either way)
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Postpunk Noisegazr Shoegazing Punks [whathe]Spirit Bears on Faith Cannon Records.  confusing and confounding since 05

nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #973 on: July 01, 2013, 12:43:49 pm »

This doesn't look like a scumslip to me.  Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics?  It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.

I disagree.  That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up!  That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...

Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially?  He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #974 on: July 01, 2013, 12:44:53 pm »

TA is without a doubt scum. What has he done the entire game except tunnel me? Oh that's right, another bad case...
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Postpunk Noisegazr Shoegazing Punks [whathe]Spirit Bears on Faith Cannon Records.  confusing and confounding since 05
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