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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192252 times)

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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #900 on: June 30, 2013, 10:01:33 pm »

I could be wrong, sure.  But I could be right.  Good enough chance of that to think you are our best chance of lynching scum on D1.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #901 on: June 30, 2013, 10:06:31 pm »

I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch.  I haven't found anyone's cases compelling.  My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around.  His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.

raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say.  Are they off somewhere lurking together? 

Past due time for Theorel to come back.

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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #902 on: June 30, 2013, 10:08:30 pm »

Ahoppy:  For a while, I had him as my top scumread.  He was around, but engaged only in theory talk, and would give reads soon after players started to pile pressure on him for not having many reads.  I went back and re-read him in Mean Girls, where he was town, and his play was pretty similar to here.  He was slightly more active here, but in Mean Girls he didn't build cases anymore.  His actions here fit with his actions in mean girls.  I'm still slightly worried, as he has been active here, but much less so than before.  Slight scum read.

Ashersky:  He's been very protown, but I think he might be able to fake that well.  He certainly faked it well when he was a watcher in mean girls (Note:  Wasn't actually a watcher in mean girls).  I recently have issues with differences between how he pursued mail-mi's lynch, but was reluctant to do the same with Xeiron, despite them having very similar metas and similar cases.  If Xeiron eventually flips scum, or mail-mi town, this would be something to keep in mind.  I also am uncomfortable with how he found Mail-mi scummy for reacting to his jokes about watching in mean girls... it seems like it could have been a trap.  But, Xeiron hasn't flipped scum, and mail-mi hasn't flipped town, and he has been a leading force in moving the game forward, so for now, a slightly town read.

Chairs:  Very towny.  I think his claim is newbie town.  See my post #668 if you want more in-depth reasoning.  Big town read.

Eevee:  He defended SB, who I think is slightly scummy, and mail-mi, who I don't think is that scummy.  He defended from Ashersky well, and had good answers to all his points.  He's been very open and pro-town, and I have no reason to think that's a facade at this point.  Town read.

EFHW:  Not really a strong opinion here.  Her early argument with Shraeye is a null on both sides to me.  I actually can't remember her specific views.. perhaps a re-read is in order soon.  Null for now.

Mail-Mi:  Has done a few things that have been scummy (the flip-flop on Eevee, asking who to reread), but I don't actually have a huge concern here.  The biggest thing is the inconsistent explanation of his vote for Eevee, which was just really odd.  He was voting Eevee for inactivity, moved off to ash, revoted for Eevee for inactivity and "feeling off" or something like that, then explaining his vote as being purely for inactivity.  It's inconsistent, for sure.

The Eevee thing is all I really have serious problems with.  I wouldn't be shocked if he were scum, but I think we can do better.
Slight scum read.

Raerae:  Not much recently at all.  My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town.  Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with,

Shraeye:  Not much recently either!  I had a null-read on him before, and still don't have any reason to think he's scum or town.  It is important to note that he was the first one to put us on the track towards lynching inactive players, and at the time gave a list of players that he would not consider lynching.  As players start flipping, I think we should keep in mind the categories he listed players as and see if we can detect any patterns.  Null read.

Spiritbears:  His main stance this game was supporting EFHW as towny as Shraeye as scummy.  If I'm remembering correctly, the only stated reason for supporting EFHW is that she was saying a lot of things he agreed with.  This SB-EFHW connection is something to keep in mind.  What's odd here for SB is that I don't at all know why Shraeye is (was?) a scum-read for him.  He never gave us a reason!  He put some effort into pushing Shraeye, for example asking Theorel if he was okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case.  Placing a vote on someone, pushing for it, but never explaining why you think that player is scummy is off, and scummy.

I don't at all buy the argument that SB's aggressive defense is towny, either.  People say that the last time he did this, he was town... well, yeah, but as town he has also not been this aggressive.  I think it's possible that SB could be aggressive when pushed regardless of alignment when pushed.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the defense here, but I don't buy it as of now.  Scum read.

Theorel:  Missing for so long.  Was dead null before his absence, and even more null now.  As null as it gets.

TwistedArcher:  Initially, I had a feeling that he was "off".  But looking back, I'm not 100% sure why.  He drove a case fairly hard against SB, which is exactly the same thing he did Day1 in Shakespeare against myself, Day2 in Pirates against mail-mi, etc.  He may or may not be right, but town!TA builds cases like that.  He's asking good questions, participating actively, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he says lately.  I don't have any reasons to think he's scum at this point.  Town read.

Xeiron:  I think how he responded to Ash's case on raerae by voting raerae was scummy.  He made so many assumptions when giving his reasoning.. that ash *might* be a town member who *might* be insinuating that he *might* have info on raerae.  What??  And then he comes on and gives Theorel's math a challenge, that's also bad and appears like he didn't impartially read the post.

My only concern is the 12 post thing.  This is my least favorite part about forum mafia.. when you play in real life, everyone is there, and you can ask them anything at any time.  Here, we have to play around people's availabilities, and participation is very self-driven.  I think it is quite possible that town!Xeiron is disinterested.  But I still think we have a better case on him than anyone else, and he's my preferred lynch.  Scum read.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #903 on: June 30, 2013, 10:08:55 pm »

Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #904 on: June 30, 2013, 10:20:36 pm »

That's an impressive reads post nkirbit, very throughout. Still a solid town read.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #905 on: June 30, 2013, 10:54:25 pm »

Interestingly enough, that list is VERY, VERY similar to mine. Everyone's the exact same read, in fact, except that I have mail-mi as more towny, Eevee as more scummy, and Shraeye as more towny. The rest is almost the same as my list.

It strikes me as interesting that the only differences concern Eevee as more towny, mail-mi (who had made a case on Eevee) more scummy, and a small difference on Shraeye.

It also strikes me as interesting, despite the fact that Nkirbit's list is so, so, so similar to mine, that Eevee challenged my reads, and greets Nkirbit's reads with a "nice post, town read". On my list, he had a problem with my reads on Raerae (which was poorly explained) and mail-mi (which was explained). On nkirbit's list, mail-mi is scummy, while on mine he's towny.

Literally the only significant differences between my list and Nkirbit's list were the reads on mail-mi and Eevee. Eevee should be happy that he's townier on this list, but I think there could be something here with the Eevee-Nkirbit-mail-mi triangle. Eevee is much happier with this list than with mine, and the only significant non-Eevee placement is with mail-mi.
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #906 on: June 30, 2013, 10:56:47 pm »

The things that have stuck out above and beyond normal mail-mi scumminess in this game include his reaction/vote when I played the raerae gambit;

I thought it was kind of scummy of you so I voted u.

Quote
his annoyance and vote at my Mean Girls references;

You're totally forgetting the other 88% not RVS reason! That scum!ash is trying to get into our heads!

 
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and what I saw as a contradiction when he voted/unvoted Eevee.

Lurking was a main reason. Not the main reason, but a main one.

PPE: 67 wow.

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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #907 on: June 30, 2013, 11:01:58 pm »

TA, it wasn't so much the actual reads - we don't have THAT much to go on yet, so I'm not as concerned about people interpreting things differently. It was more how he explained them. Nkirbit's explanations made sense to me, and I could understand how he landed on those reads. It was explanation first, then a logical read stemming from it. Yours had more of a "okay, this is what I want to think, and now I need to find a way to rationalize it" feel.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #908 on: June 30, 2013, 11:03:01 pm »

Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
I thought that didn't start until Thursday.  They're not listed.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #909 on: June 30, 2013, 11:04:23 pm »

TA, it wasn't so much the actual reads - we don't have THAT much to go on yet, so I'm not as concerned about people interpreting things differently. It was more how he explained them. Nkirbit's explanations made sense to me, and I could understand how he landed on those reads. It was explanation first, then a logical read stemming from it. Yours had more of a "okay, this is what I want to think, and now I need to find a way to rationalize it" feel.

Once again, I think this is stemming from you seeing me as "off" and reading all my posts that way, but that's fair enough I guess.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #910 on: June 30, 2013, 11:06:57 pm »

I do have a strong feeling most of us who've been duper active here tonight are town. Like, maybe one scum, but for the most part this reminds me of myself, ash and Jimm in bankers - interested townies getting together and trying to figure it out. So heh, ultimately I do want to lynch outside from the foreground I guess?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #911 on: June 30, 2013, 11:09:12 pm »

Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything.  I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer.  Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.
Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!
I think TA has a point in noticing an apparent link between nkirbit and Eevee.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #912 on: June 30, 2013, 11:11:56 pm »

Ahoppy is v/la, btw, and I think chairs said he would be gone, too?  He didn't put it in the v/la thread.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #913 on: June 30, 2013, 11:13:32 pm »

sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it.  We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #914 on: June 30, 2013, 11:15:04 pm »

sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it.  We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!

Second!
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #915 on: June 30, 2013, 11:16:56 pm »

I just want to say that Day 1 is impossible!  Talk to you all tomorrow!
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #916 on: June 30, 2013, 11:16:59 pm »

sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it.  We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!

Second!
Yes, this!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #917 on: June 30, 2013, 11:23:21 pm »

To be fair, your read on raerae was:

Quote
Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.

And mine was

Quote
My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town.  Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with

So there's a very good reason why Eevee had an issue with your town read but not mine.  Yours didn't make any sense, though.



The Eevee - Mail-mi connection is interesting, and a good point to keep in mind!  Also interesting to note that this is not the first time we have had a connection between those two... mail-mi's votes on Eevee were odd upon examination, and a lot of us concluded they were scummy because he was inconsistent. 

What was Eevee doing during the Mail-Mi mini wagon we had going on?

#780.  Agrees with Ash (#779) that TA's defense of Mail-mi is odd.
#795  Thinks that Mail-mi's "can I have some questions to defend myself" post is fake.
#816, we have this:

TA is seeming townier of late, I think it's unlikely he'd defend mail-mi like that if he was scum and mail-mi, because it seems like we are drifting towards lynching either TA or mail-mi.

Unvote for that, actually.

Yet still doesn't vote mail-mi?  Why not?  All we have heard from Eevee lately is uneasiness about mail-mi.  Why doesn't he vote here, then?

#830  Defend's mail-mi, both in his action of choosing to read Xeiron, and his question asking for who to re-read.

#831  Says he's leaning towards lynching Xeiron, who seems to be one of the few alternative lynches.

And then he very quickly moves off of voting Xeiron.

Reading back, I can't find Eevee ever state a definitive scumread on Mail-Mi.  But he makes lots of comments about how he doesn't think Mail-mi's Xeiron case is good (#712), and other subtle things like that.

The connection is certainly weird.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #918 on: June 30, 2013, 11:29:38 pm »

Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is scum, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.

Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a town among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #919 on: June 30, 2013, 11:32:42 pm »

That's an excellent example of what I was trying to say, nkirbit. Your reads are explanations -> logical conclusions. TA's were conclusions -> some words trying to explain them. Eh, I don't know how to explain it. Read what nkirbit wrote above!

I thought my mail-mi position was clearer, sorry. It's extremely hard for me to read him, as I always always think he is so scummy. Like, if this was some new guy I had no idea about, I would have probably voted him after the flipflop on me and never swayed from that. However, with mail-mi I've just got to remember that history has shown that being sheepy and sometimes not being able to explain your reads or positions in a sufficient manner is not a scum tell - it's just how he plays the game (and I do think he is intentionally embracing that meta now). So, I'm trying different things, trying to learn how to read him. "Is there a town narrative for this scummy action" is one way to look at it, and you know, his behavior could very well be just him being a care-free townie. I don't know, a bunch of stuff he has done is scummy, but also some of it is really not scummy, more "weird".

TA deflecting away from mail-mi when they were the two top wagons doesn't say anything about mail-mi's alignment to me - I just think scum might panic there and try to scramble for any alternative lynch. TA seemed to still be interested in trying to find mafia (rather than in lynching anyone but himself), which I think is a huge town tell. But, TA being town and reading mail-mi's actions towny doesn't really say much about mail-mi.

I don't know, I'm going back and forth, it's like "yes, he is not a town read, but we can try to figure it out later, no need to lynch him today".
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #920 on: June 30, 2013, 11:38:41 pm »

I concede the point on Raerae, but that's 1 read out of 12 -- I think the rest of my reads were fairly well explained!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #921 on: June 30, 2013, 11:39:55 pm »

I swear, one of these days I'll start proofreading.

Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is scumtown, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.

Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a townscum among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #922 on: June 30, 2013, 11:41:30 pm »

I don't know, Eevee. Another simply interpretation of your actions is simply "I want mail-mi lynched, but I don't want to be the one holding the rope".
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #923 on: June 30, 2013, 11:44:00 pm »

I think I've actually been pushing away from a mail-mi lynch if anything, really. Like I know I'm not being very clear about it, but I've never voted for him and don't consider him the best lynch now.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #924 on: June 30, 2013, 11:44:58 pm »

Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is town, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.

Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a scum among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.

(I kept your fix in, just cleaned it up for readability.)

What?  If Eevee is going for a mail-mi mislynch, why did he jump in when he did and defend mail-mi?  There was a decent amount of pressure at that point, and he had a hand in stopping the momentum.  I just don't get how Eevee would be trying to push a mail-mi mislynch here.
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