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[raerae]

I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.

Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells?  This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.

[Twistedarcher]

Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.

Took me about 5 reads to realize you were talking about Spiritbears, and not me!

I know he reacted to Ashersky's vote, and thought Ash was scummy for it. But it didn't strike me as being something that was really putting himself out there, either. I'll go re-read it and double check.

The sharp reaction to Ahoppy I believe falls under the same reaction as the reaction to my case. It was simply Ahoppy restating my case, and asking for the same answers I was asking for. So this shouldn't count as something separate.

[nkirbit]

Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.

His reaction to Ash's vote was to immediately vote Ash and continue to call him scummy for tunneling on raerae without a reason, right?  That's about as easy to fake as it comes.  I don't think it's scummy, but I don't think we should be not considering him for a lynch because of it.

The Ahoppy reaction was defensive, right?

[shraeye]

If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.

How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?

I guess it depends on how right he thinks he is.  I attribute both of those qualities to him.  He was pretty stubborn in finding you scummy in the SpecQT for Shakespear, I recall.

[Twistedarcher]

Looking back, I don't get the impression that Spiritbears voting for Ashersky was a "loud" reaction, anymore than Mail-mi's view on Ashersky, X's vote on Raerae, etc. etc. etc.

[Twistedarcher]

I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.

Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells?  This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.

Oh, I never did read that one. He was town in that game?

[nkirbit]

I just re-read it.  He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game.  Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations.  So not quite the same as in this game.

[raerae]

I just re-read it.  He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game.  Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations.  So not quite the same as in this game.

Thanks, kermit.  That wasn't my remembering at all.  Thought that one was t vs. t.  Well, I suppose my point is moot.

[nkirbit]

It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.

I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.

[raerae]

It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.

I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.

So it was town vs. town, SB & Yuma were both town?  It matters because his reaction is the same here as there (only tempered a bit as this thread has yet to be locked) but TA insists on saying this is a new reaction and therefore scummy.  This is false.

[nkirbit]

Okay.  You do have a point, but I don't think it automatically clears SB.. there are differences.  But I think calling his reaction scummy isn't a good point anymore.  If he's scummy for other reasons, we should still consider them.

That being said, I don't have any interest in going through and analyzing the differences between here and there anymore than I've already done.  Even it if may help, I don't think it's something that's appropriate for the enjoyment of the game.

[EFHW]

Yay, there's lots to read.  I'll be back in a few to catch up.

[EFHW]

Well, it looks like it's time to do a TA reread and see if our impressions of him as scummy are actually backed up by anything he has done.  I'll work on that and get back to you.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.9

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher

Not Voting: (1) AHoppy

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.

[Eevee]

I'm not not voting!

[Archetype]

I'm not not voting!

Fixed!

[ashersky]

Where the heck is Ash?

Glad you missed me.

It was the weekend here, and the time difference.  I'll catch up and respond to things.

[ashersky]

Yep, second no lynch suggestion. All I'm saying is I'm not opposed to it. Is it scummy? Maybe. But I don't want to hamstring us D1 by killing off a potentially key town member. Basically I don't like D1, and I don't get much info out of it. But I'll probably get more once I fully catch up.

I am as anti no-lynch as it is possible to be.  I will lynch someone I believe to be town at deadline if necessary to get a lynch through.

I do not vote for my strongest scum-read in general.  I use my vote as a tool, and always voting for my strongest scum-read I do not believe to be an effective use of that tool.  In this instance, I think voting for shraeye is better.

A bit of no-lynch talk.  I get zero reads from these sorts of suggestions, since it's impossible to know if not lynching D1 helps or hurts town or scum in an RMM game.  So folks being on either side of this is pretty meaningless.

[ashersky]

Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:

What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote.  I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'.  In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread.  So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.

So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote.  I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron

The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron.  Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons.   Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player?  And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this).  I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though.  If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.

Links to their reactions:

I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for.  Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.


However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote.

I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one

I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.

Shraeye does some good analysis here.  I do think it is interesting that my vote got more attention than shraeye's, but considering the Mean Girls performance is still fresh on a number of minds here, and shraeye is generally a more "under the radar" kind of player than I am, I think it isn't out of the ordinary.

The types of reactions to each case are important to note, which shraeye has done here. 

[ashersky]

Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.

These lists are useful, I think.  They're easy to do, sure, but they do force raerae to make some statements.  I don't know why I'm a mystery to her, though.

Agreed on the Theo point.  He's impossible to read because he churns out information like a computer.  He's the true Abed of f.ds mafia.

[spiritbears]

Sorry
Had to step away to cool off
Mostly I'm sorry to ahop, you really didn't deserve that and I just don't have an excuse
I've probably messed this up bad and if you guys want me gone I'll step aside won't contest the lynch

[ashersky]

I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons.  Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?).  If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it. 

I disagree with this statement.  Early in the game is the easiest time to jump on lots of wagons.  Any heat you get for it can be argued away as "man, it's early D1, there's so little to go on anyway."

[ashersky]

Haha oh my.

I disagree with raerae. She is saying she thinks claims like the one chairs made are usually scum trying to get easy towncred, I challenge her to find even one unpressured "overeager" day 1 claim that was not just what it seems like - a townie that got a little bit too jumpy.

Chairs's claim IS the kind scum uses to get easy towncred.  BUT, I don't think that was the case in Chairs's claim, given the timing.  It was 100% unneccessary and unhelpful to him and his team if he's scum.

[ashersky]

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.

Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.

I get what Ash is saying here, but I don't get this. He's saying that Eevee is scummy for making an opinion, but he's saying here that it's an opinion that someone could come to as either town or scum. So why does Eevee get his vote / scumread for this?

You get what I'm saying, but you don't get it?  What?

I'm saying that Eevee made a post asserting an opinion that took zero risk.  As I mentioned, he could say that about sb without reading a single post in the game.  Yet it was a post/opinion that gains a bit of towncred.  I think scum!Eevee definitely defends sb if sb is town, as a means of gaining towncred.  It's an actual Eevee tactic.

[ashersky]

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.

Here ya go!

There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

Both town and scum can self-refer to meta.  I've done it as both.  Generally a null read from self-meta meta.

The "how you should read me" instruction manual stuff is a bit over-the-top for scum.  I don't see him risking it.