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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192283 times)

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #725 on: June 30, 2013, 02:13:27 pm »

What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #726 on: June 30, 2013, 02:14:16 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #727 on: June 30, 2013, 02:15:14 pm »

What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #728 on: June 30, 2013, 02:15:38 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Barring obvious scum reads, I'd tend to agree with this. But I think that spirit is closer to that category than you all think he is.

Can someone give me a reason they think spiritbears is towny other than "I don't think scum would react that emotionally and that much"? I don't give that town cred, and I've yet to see another reason why people thinks he's towny (or that I remember).
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #729 on: June 30, 2013, 02:16:06 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #730 on: June 30, 2013, 02:16:13 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.

Are we reading the same game?  Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude.  Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #731 on: June 30, 2013, 02:17:22 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?

If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.

Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like

PPE: Or if Eevee would like
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #732 on: June 30, 2013, 02:19:18 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?

If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.

Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like

PPE: Or if Eevee would like

I'll let Eevee make that call.  I don't think it would sway me much.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #733 on: June 30, 2013, 02:20:00 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #734 on: June 30, 2013, 02:20:26 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.

Are we reading the same game?  Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude.  Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
As I said, most of the arguments you guys have been involved in haven't really done much for me. If I feel, despite the tone, that they've been a tad willy-nilly, I don't count it as "something scum isn't likely to do".

Also, for me it's not just being out there and posting a lot. For some people super mega lurking can be a huge town tell because they simply wouldn't do it as scum.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #735 on: June 30, 2013, 02:21:10 pm »

What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).

So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #736 on: June 30, 2013, 02:21:52 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #737 on: June 30, 2013, 02:22:36 pm »

What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).

So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
I do, but what else is new.. I don't think the behavior is extremely scummy for him, he is just very hard to read once you realize you always instinctively think he is scummy.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #738 on: June 30, 2013, 02:28:19 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.

I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.

I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #739 on: June 30, 2013, 02:30:18 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?

I agree with this point, and would like someone who has said they don't think SB is scum to answer.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #740 on: June 30, 2013, 02:32:56 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.

I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.

I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
Well, the scum read kind of IS that you feel weird for me, as I said I don't like how poorly I'm able to explain it. But, I once before had a similar scum read on you (luckily as an IC then so I didn't need to be able to explain it) - and it turned out to be correct, so I think until I find something better, I should listen to my gut here.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #741 on: June 30, 2013, 02:33:51 pm »

I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher

People questioned why Chairs came to the conclusion that one of the two are likely scum, but I don't think anyone asked:

Why did you pick TA as your vote rather than SB, Chairs?  Was there a reason?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #742 on: June 30, 2013, 02:35:00 pm »

Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #743 on: June 30, 2013, 02:35:56 pm »

Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #744 on: June 30, 2013, 02:37:59 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?
Being in the foreground isn't really a question of "what have you contributed today".  It's a "did you put yourself in a place where you are highly visible and therefore likely to be blown up at?"  I think scum is willing to "contribute" quite a lot, but very rarely are willing to place themselves in the second group.

Does this answer your question as well, Twisted?
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #745 on: June 30, 2013, 02:40:22 pm »

Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
I know, and I horribly misjudged EVERYTHING in shakespeare (which might actually be why I'm so unable to form strong opinions know, seriously I sucked so bad in that game).

Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..

Maybe we should do rereads on the people in the background to see who fits the scum narrative the best. Mail-mi did xeiron already, but he is another guy who just always seems scummy to me, and much like mail-mi, his scumminess seems the "same" in this game, at least on surface.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #746 on: June 30, 2013, 02:42:38 pm »

I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #747 on: June 30, 2013, 02:45:11 pm »

Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..

Would you be willing to lynch TA Day1, based solely on a gut feeling?  As opposed to other lynches we have today?

I don't think that calling any Day1 lynch based on a gut feeling is correct, either.  We have reasons to lynch Xeiron (calling out Theorel's math was weird, sheeping onto raerae was weird), and Ahoppy (lurky, only posts theory until called out to not). Those aren't necessarily correct, and it's very very likely that at least one of those would be a mislynch, but those wouldn't be lynches based on a gut feeling.

Lynching TA right now would be mostly based on a gut feeling, from what I'm seeing from you and raerae.  Would you be willing to do that?
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #748 on: June 30, 2013, 02:45:29 pm »


Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #749 on: June 30, 2013, 02:46:42 pm »

If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.

How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?
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