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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 194046 times)

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #700 on: June 30, 2013, 01:25:07 pm »

I see that mail-mi has made the exact point on Xeiron that I just made. It's a point I agree with, and I also generally agree with most of what he's said in this case. Xeiron's been lurking, as well. Scum read on Xeiron and town read on mail-mi -- he has been playing more actively and getting more opinions out than he's normally been doing, and normal mail-mi to me is scum mail-mi (2/3 games)
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #701 on: June 30, 2013, 01:26:23 pm »

I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher

Why this conclusion? And why me over SB?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #702 on: June 30, 2013, 01:27:29 pm »

I do think Chairs is town because of the claim - it's not something I see coming from scum, but it's something I see coming from town. I'm a bit concerned by his vote on me, which followed Raerae, Eevee, and nkirbit all agreeing they see me as "off", but I think it's more likely than not that he's town.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #703 on: June 30, 2013, 01:27:58 pm »

He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)

In Shakespeare mail-mi was very scummy and town.  He would have been mislynched if it weren't for raerae (>:().  He is being super-scummy here.  I think he enjoys it!  I've decided his play in general is no help in figuring out his alignment, and it's the final wagons or almost final but failed wagons for each day and POE that will determine my reads of him.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #704 on: June 30, 2013, 01:29:49 pm »

Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #705 on: June 30, 2013, 01:39:57 pm »

Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?

I remember him speaking least recently plus he's usually in the middle of this stuff.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #706 on: June 30, 2013, 01:40:29 pm »

Actually, theorel's last post was very close to the timeframe of ash's last post.  I think raerae picking ash out of those two shows a possible connection between raerae/theorel; I recall them also saying roughly the same thing in the wake of mine and EFHW's disagreement.

I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others.  I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.

raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town".  As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy.  Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town.  Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things.  I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.

Now that I look that up, I see theorel making a sort of hedgy read on raerae, involving the calculations of whether fights are most likely town-town or not.  Yeah, I definitely see a possible connection there. Theorel is a null read for me right now, but he's on the list of "background players" that I'd be willing to lynch.  Raerae is being in-your-face and asking all the questions that I want to be asking as well; so townread on her. So I have no huge scumread on them, but like nkirbit/spiritbears from before, if either flips scum we need to remember this in the future.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #707 on: June 30, 2013, 01:48:40 pm »

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?

Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed.  Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.

I agree that I probably drew more attention to Ahoppy's post than necessary, but I disagree that this is necessarily a scummy thing.  If I'm scum, and I want to draw attention to something in that post, don't I just go into the scum QT tonight and post about it?  Why does scum need to draw attention to a post like this?  It's not like I was giving AHoppy a scumread for his leaked info.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #708 on: June 30, 2013, 01:50:34 pm »

That's understandable, great and a good defense.  :)

I don't know, I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for. No one is standing out to me (not by actually standing out or by being too far back).

nkirbit and to an extent ashersky I read towny.

raerae and TA would maaayybe be scumreads, but I hate putting this out if I can't back them out in any way.

Others, I'm just very null on. So, town, know that I'm here and will eventually contribute with my vote, I just don't know where to put it yet. I do want a lynch to happen, but I'd rather not just randomly fire my vote somewhere.

PPE13, forgot to hit send.. going to read them after posting!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #709 on: June 30, 2013, 01:52:49 pm »

On Ahoppy:  I'm not sure what to think here.  It is true that he spent half the game talking exclusively about theory, and only started to give reads when pressured to do so (and even then, they weren't that extensive).  This could be scummy, but this could also be a towny who's simply more comfortable with theory talk than scumhunting.  He was town in Mean Girls, and from memory didn't engage in much scumhunting at all.  His play has, in certain ways, been scummy here, but I don't think I can really say he has played differently than he did in Mean Girls, and I'm not sure what to think of that.  Probably not a townread, but not the scumread I had earlier on second thought.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #710 on: June 30, 2013, 01:54:26 pm »

My reads:


Raerae - towny
mail-mi - towny


Scum to town:

Spiritbears --  Okay, I still think that Spiritbears is very possibly scum. He has still yet to provide a good answer to the EFHW/Shraeye question, and he's reacted a lot to the case. The only defense I've heard, from several people, is that Spiritbears' emotional reaction means that he's probably town.

The thing is...we've never seen Spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen a reaction like this before. I feel the back and forth has detracted from the case a fair amount, but the fact is, I've seen nothing to lessen my scum read, and the reaction doesn't read towny to me, either.

Xeiron -- There's several things here. His sheeping of Ash onto Raerae was suspicious. His accusation and statement of "How do you know there's 3 scum" at Theorel is suspicious. He's mega-lurking. All of these things push me towards scum-Xeiron.

Ahoppy -- I agree with Raerae's post where Ahoppy's been very quick to react to his lurking. More importantly, though, is that he hasn't really been lurking, but that he's active, and talking about theory, but just not getting his reads out there until prompted. I don't see any original scum-hunting coming from Ahoppy. Until he starts doing this, I'll have a scummier read on him.

Eevee -- for several of the reasons I recently listed.

EFHW - slightly scummy. She's been active and helpful, much of which was theory early on, though. I found her view on Shraeye, implying that he's likely scum, a bit too certain for that early in D1. There's also the fact that SB, who I think is scum, has been sheeping her reads. If SB flips scum, I would look very closely here.

Theorel -- I'm finding it really hard to read Theorel. He's not around much, so he always posts "catch up" posts, which are so, so hard for me to read, and they are so much easier for scum to pick and choose what they put in there. But town does the same thing, as well. I thought his theory was fine, but equally likely from town or scum, as well. I just don't have anything here, so null.

Nkirbit -- I'm having a similar problem with nkirbit that I do with Theorel. Early on, a lot of catch up posts that I don't get a scum read from but that I don't get a town read from, either. He's been more active lately, but I do agree with spiritbears that he tends to make posts that are very pro-town, but easy pro-town posts to make (the two that stick out are calling Ahoppy out for revealing info, and calling mail-mi out for asking who he should re-read. These both strike me as so obvious and so inarguably correct that I get a null read from them, if that makes any sense). I get nothing from the argument with SB on either side. Null here as well.

Ashersky -- I do this his pushing and prodding on Raerae on Eevee was designed to get information, and catch scum. The problem is, I don't know if it was designed to catch scum, or catch scummy townies. I get a slight town read, but not a large one.

Shraeye - Slight town, as well. Similar to Ashersky. I just find it unlikely that scum!shraeye would choose to push that weak of a case on me that early. I found him townier than EFHW in their argument, and while I'm not convinced there's a scum there, I think if there's 1, it's more likely EFHW.

Chairs -- I just don't think scum claims their item like that. If he's scum, he had a pregame QT, and I just think he'd have been told "Don't do that!!!" Could be a gambit, but I think that's more unlikely.

mail-mi -- I liked his re-read of Xeiron, and he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people. The sheeping is there, but it probably always will be, regardless of alignment. Some scummy stuff, but like everyone says, mail-mi is scummy, as scum or town. Everytime he's been scum, though, there's been HUGE red flags, and I haven't seen any HUGE red flags, just slightly scummy stuff. Given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game, I really do think hes town.

Raerae -- Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.




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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #711 on: June 30, 2013, 01:55:37 pm »

I would have indeed mislynched mail-mi in shakespeare as well had raerae not saved me from it.

Other than that, he has only played samurais and ninjas where he was scum? Maybe some others, I'm not sure.

About the other weak cases.. they just didn't do a whole lot for me either way. The arguments weren't easy to follow / I didn't find myself siding with either party, it just seemed like picking on very minor things to get the game going. I didn't make any reads out of those, sorry.

(The first line of the post above seems confusing now, it was about TA's explanation about sounding weird during his debate with spiritbears.)

I think calling ash out with semi-strong language is not very needed, dude is allowed to go a day without posting!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #712 on: June 30, 2013, 01:55:51 pm »

Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?

Isn't it reasonable to call out Ash simply for being the most active player in the group?  You would expect him to be here now, because he's been here all game.  The others haven't been inactive, but not active to the degree Ash has been, so his absence now is the most noticeable.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #713 on: June 30, 2013, 01:58:33 pm »

Oh yes, Vote: Spiritbears . I just think he's more than likely scum. Nothing about his defense has made me think otherwise.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #714 on: June 30, 2013, 01:59:36 pm »

If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.

Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #715 on: June 30, 2013, 02:01:38 pm »

If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.

Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.

Such as? I can't defend myself when all you people constantly say is that I don't seem right!
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #716 on: June 30, 2013, 02:03:58 pm »

TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing?  I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #717 on: June 30, 2013, 02:05:53 pm »

TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing?  I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.

Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #718 on: June 30, 2013, 02:06:12 pm »

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #719 on: June 30, 2013, 02:09:06 pm »

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.

Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #720 on: June 30, 2013, 02:09:47 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #721 on: June 30, 2013, 02:09:58 pm »

What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #722 on: June 30, 2013, 02:10:46 pm »

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.

Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
TA has it right here.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #723 on: June 30, 2013, 02:11:51 pm »

TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #724 on: June 30, 2013, 02:12:10 pm »

I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
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