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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192172 times)

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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #675 on: June 30, 2013, 11:39:48 am »

I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
Why do you think one or other is likely to be scum?

I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately.  I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum.
Well, PPS with the VT claim was town in Volt's waffle game, I was town with the stupid secret chamber game in eHalc's RMM 1 or 2.

Obviously it's different later, every claim starts to be pressured as they need to make sure they don't corner themselves with being too passive.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #676 on: June 30, 2013, 11:41:00 am »

I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
If you think they were arguing only to detract from meaningful conversation, then are you saying they're both scum?

Man, Eevee just PPE'd me, and raerae too.  Seriously, you need to explain this more.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #677 on: June 30, 2013, 12:30:05 pm »

Hey!  Hey, X!  You appear to have missed this!

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?

Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #678 on: June 30, 2013, 12:35:43 pm »

Hey, I'm here. Sorry for my absence, just got really frustrated with this game so avoided it for a few days. Catching up now.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #679 on: June 30, 2013, 12:39:44 pm »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

I think this is an important point, but it actually speak more to the fact that Xeiron is scummy, rather than Theorel being scummy.

I think that 3 scum in 13 players is a perfectly fine assumption, it'd be my guess as well.

I read Xeiron's comment as possibly being "How do you know there's 3 of us???" rather than a more neutral phrasing of something such as "What makes you think there's 3 scum?" The phrase "know for sure", to me, means that Theorel confirmed something that Xeiron would know is 100% true. He's not asking why he's guessing it - he's asking how he knows it.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #680 on: June 30, 2013, 12:45:53 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.

I get what Ash is saying here, but I don't get this. He's saying that Eevee is scummy for making an opinion, but he's saying here that it's an opinion that someone could come to as either town or scum. So why does Eevee get his vote / scumread for this?
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #681 on: June 30, 2013, 12:46:21 pm »

I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately.  I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum. 
In Banker's Beware I kept track of map-claiming. Town players was systematicly claiming more and earlier in that game. Scum, espesially you, made almost no claims. And the one among scum who did claim, Archetype, managed to scumslip.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #682 on: June 30, 2013, 12:47:36 pm »

Hey!  Hey, X!  You appear to have missed this!

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?

Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.

So, in summary, you are not voting for your top scumread.  I'm sorry, who is that again?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #683 on: June 30, 2013, 12:48:32 pm »


If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.

Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #684 on: June 30, 2013, 12:50:50 pm »

Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #685 on: June 30, 2013, 12:53:08 pm »

There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #686 on: June 30, 2013, 12:53:28 pm »

Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give [c]myself[/c]him a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??

Oops
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #687 on: June 30, 2013, 12:53:52 pm »

Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myselfhim a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??

Oops
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #688 on: June 30, 2013, 12:56:02 pm »

yay new voices!

I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 

Why, and why are you sad to say it?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #689 on: June 30, 2013, 12:56:38 pm »

Fixed

yay new voices!

I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #690 on: June 30, 2013, 12:57:22 pm »

AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did.  I think his idea is a more logical conclusion.  What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?

That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did.  He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum.  I don't know if that is more logical or not.  It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too. 

I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons.  Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?).  If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it. 

Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon.  I thought it was possible you were bussing TA.  So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting. 

I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
I keep reading this and I can't figure out what you're conclusion is.  That raerae probably isn't scum?  Because at some point, you're calling an entire scum triple of raerae, me, Twisted.  Why does the fact that the wagon happened early in the game affect your read on raerae?
I don't HAVE any conclusion from the way the two cases developed.  I don't find it that informative.

I don't think scum would do diversionary tactics early in the game because no one is in any real danger early in the game.  raerae was not in any real danger and therefore diversion wasn't really needed.  I also think jumping on wagons as a diversion is risky early in the game because it is really obvious.  So the lack of people jumping on TA's wagon is null to me.

I don't think you are all three scum, I'm saying that your logic as modified by Ahoppy's could equally lead to that conclusion.

I independently don't have any reason to see raerae as scum, unrelated to these scenarios.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #691 on: June 30, 2013, 01:01:19 pm »

Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #692 on: June 30, 2013, 01:10:05 pm »

yay new voices!
I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
Why is a hard question and is the reason I'm not pushing a case yet.  It's an impression that I haven't made time to make concrete yet.  Sad to say b/c you contribute a lot when you are town and it sad not to have that and to see that talent turned to evil ;).  And if I'm wrong and I get you mislynched, that would also be sad.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #693 on: June 30, 2013, 01:12:02 pm »

There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.

I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #694 on: June 30, 2013, 01:14:33 pm »

Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.

I made a very, very, very concerted effort to stay calm in the "discussion" when it became clear that it could go downhill. I I chose my words carefully and made sure what I was saying was in no way personal once I started getting told by SB that they were. If I wasn't calm I would have very possibly lost it.

I see further down this page that Eevee and nkirbit agree that I'm "off". I wish I could defend myself but thats a claim I can't really refute...
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #695 on: June 30, 2013, 01:15:36 pm »

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?

Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed.  Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #696 on: June 30, 2013, 01:15:48 pm »

TA, I completely agree with Eevee re: mail-mi...hasn't he only been scum once or maybe twice?  His playstyle makes him a great mislynch target.  Is that what you're doing with this?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #697 on: June 30, 2013, 01:17:16 pm »

There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.

I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?

What do you think of the weak cases by Shraeye and the other one by Ash? Do you draw the same conclusion?

He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #698 on: June 30, 2013, 01:18:23 pm »

No, I don't think mail-mi is most likely to be scum, I wouldn't support his lynch. But let me finish my re-read then I'll get you my reads!
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #699 on: June 30, 2013, 01:19:23 pm »

Where the heck is Ash?
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