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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192262 times)

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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #625 on: June 28, 2013, 01:08:57 pm »

Shraeye is correct that I did not list sb's reaction. I simply didn't see it, but you're right, it was there and I should not have put him in the category that I did.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #626 on: June 28, 2013, 01:43:20 pm »

I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit.  nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy.  And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
Connections are very important to remember, because recently there has been a lot of terrible lynches (on day2,3,etc) that I think are predicated on "what is happening scummy right now"-mentality, instead of "hey we lynched this one mafia member, let's look to see who had odd interactions with him"-mentality.  I htink the latter mentality is much better, and that we have been drifting away from it since the days when i started mafia here back around Mafia IX.

Ok, but what are the connections implied in the sb-nkirbit-ash interaction?  I guess it's moot now, since nk's omission seems to have been an oversight, but I would like to understand anyhow.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #627 on: June 28, 2013, 02:59:40 pm »

I pointed out several players for not discussing the ash-raerae "case".  I called these players scummy, and incorrectly put sb on the list when he should not have been. The biggest implication was that if I were scum, I could be manipulating the interaction based on SB's alignment, by saying something like "hey, I suspected this guy who was scum, so I can't be scum".

But yeah, me simply not seeing his reaction is what actually happened!
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #628 on: June 28, 2013, 07:08:43 pm »

X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself.  Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post.  I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position.  But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.

Vote: xeiron

I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he  did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.

I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #629 on: June 29, 2013, 12:00:38 am »

I am confused xeiron; you're saying that it looked like theorel accidently forgot himself in a scumslip moment, and then say that in his post answering your case that he confirms that you are right...but still you are satisfied with his answer??  That what it seems like your post says to me, but that's just absurd, please explain what you mean.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #630 on: June 29, 2013, 12:06:28 am »

Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight.  I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think

Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me.  Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him.  But this felt different.  Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW.  Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions.  SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash.  This is the case that TA presents. 

Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own. 
- I don't need to explain, it's all there

I don't understand the stubbornness.  Just answer the question.  If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote.  Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me".  Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1.  Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more.  TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally.  This just wasn't what TA was doing.

With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.

I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night.  Sorry this is taking so long.

Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday.  I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #631 on: June 29, 2013, 12:21:49 am »

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #632 on: June 29, 2013, 12:29:12 am »

Things seem to be really slowing down here.  What would help those who haven't voted/posted reads?  Eevee, AHoppy,  nkirbit, chairs, mail-mi, Twistedarcher currently don't have votes down.  I'm interested in seeing if we have some trends developing or if we are all over the place.

re: items and all that, it seems to be dropped for the moment, which is fine.  I suggest we do nothing now and if Day 2 most people were able to make useful combinations then we don't need to worry about it, but if there is a lot of frustration then we should revisit announcing innocuous items that we want/have.

What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #633 on: June 29, 2013, 12:48:23 am »

Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight.  I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think

Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me.  Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him.  But this felt different.  Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW.  Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions.  SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash.  This is the case that TA presents. 

Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own. 
- I don't need to explain, it's all there

I don't understand the stubbornness.  Just answer the question.  If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote.  Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me".  Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1.  Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more.  TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally.  This just wasn't what TA was doing.

With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.

I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night.  Sorry this is taking so long.

Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday.  I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.
I didn't avoid it.  I did answer. This is exactly why that crappy takedown by TA pissed me off...because people that can't read are just going to sheep it and day "geez sb, how could you be so scummy"
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #634 on: June 29, 2013, 12:54:26 am »

And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
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Postpunk Noisegazr Shoegazing Punks [whathe]Spirit Bears on Faith Cannon Records.  confusing and confounding since 05

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #635 on: June 29, 2013, 01:02:54 am »

Just did a super daunting reread of chairs (all 9ish posts...) and came up with diddly.  Is he still v/la?  Chairs almost took a stance on shraeye in the early game but then backed off as soon as the EFHW/shraeye thing started up claiming he was mostly just joking with his vote anyway.  I think it's good to note that he never explained the part of that joke that wasn't a vote.  Just leaving wiggle room for later?  He then goes on to barely talk about theory for a couple posts then, when nobody snapped up on his carefully laid breadcrumb, he claimed.  As history has shown us, the person who claims out of the blue and unpressured gets a stupid amount of towncred and is (in recent memory anyway) usually scum.  Seeing as how this is his first game with us, I'm willing to cut a little slack but not without an explanation so...chairs, ya around?
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #636 on: June 29, 2013, 01:03:17 am »

And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..

Don't. You. Dare.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #637 on: June 29, 2013, 01:18:17 am »

Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game. 
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Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #638 on: June 29, 2013, 01:19:39 am »

Vote Count 1.7

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (1) shraeye
Not Voting: (6) Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, chairs, Twistedarcher, mail-mi.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.

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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #639 on: June 29, 2013, 04:49:20 am »

And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
Can you give me a quote then? I reread your ddiscussion with TA, and I didn't think he attacked you. But I easily could have missed it.

Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #640 on: June 29, 2013, 08:47:54 am »

I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #641 on: June 29, 2013, 08:48:57 am »

That being said, assuming scum has items just as well, chairs could have had the same thoughts as scum.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #642 on: June 29, 2013, 10:18:58 am »

I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.

You said you disagree about chairs and claiming suggesting scum but then you said such claims have always been scum.  Is that what you meant?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #643 on: June 29, 2013, 10:40:19 am »

sb, you are being aggressive to the point where I think you are breaching the civility pledge.  TA sometimes can sound like his opinion is the only one that makes sense, but I'm sure he wasn't meaning to offend you, and Ahoppy was quite civil in his comments.  People are reading you as scummy because of this.  I don't know if it means that, but it's hard to overlook.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #644 on: June 29, 2013, 12:07:57 pm »

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
Could you show posts for this?  I haven't noticed it, but AHoppy until recently with spirit has sortof been a background character in my mind.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #645 on: June 29, 2013, 12:11:30 pm »

What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?

Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious.  REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action.  Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #646 on: June 29, 2013, 01:06:29 pm »

What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?

Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious.  REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action.  Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
Just trying to find a way to jumpstart things here.  Maybe the lull means people have said what they have to say and now they need to tell us where they stand.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #647 on: June 29, 2013, 01:17:13 pm »

Vote: TA

I don't have a good case to build.  He just feels "off" here.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #648 on: June 29, 2013, 01:25:47 pm »

Actually, no, vote:SB.

I really, really dislike how aggressive he's being here, and I don't have a really strong read on anyone else.  This vote is mainly for the aggressiveness.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #649 on: June 29, 2013, 02:11:07 pm »

I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.

Where's the disagreement then, Eevee?  I'm confused.
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