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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192266 times)

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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #500 on: June 27, 2013, 06:57:30 pm »

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
"I only regret that I have but one vote to give for my scum reads"?
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #501 on: June 27, 2013, 07:00:26 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".

It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!

Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?

I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.

Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
I'm getting just so tired of your nonsense:
 SB IS SCUMMY, SB did something scummy! (Hey, that's not scummy) TA Repeat louder: SB wss scummy!!!
HEY look at all this scummy stuff I found!!!!
TA wears no clothes
At this point your tunneling has gone beyond "scumhunting"....way beyond. 
At this point its just scummy
vote TA
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #502 on: June 27, 2013, 07:07:39 pm »

Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.

People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.

Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.

Unvote

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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #503 on: June 27, 2013, 07:09:22 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view.  I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
This is the thing that gets frustrating about being tunneled unfairly...people start to by whst the tunneler days without checking for themselves.  It really isn't that far back, where I explained my read on efhw...and that the read had been consistent since early on in this game. Her observations have been spit on and I agree with her reads. Yet TA claims that's scummy since EFHW IS SUCH OBVISCUM...
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #504 on: June 27, 2013, 07:11:11 pm »

Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.

People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.

Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.

Unvote
Give me a break...you tunnel me all game and all of s sudden when i push back that's unfair to you!!!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #505 on: June 27, 2013, 07:12:51 pm »

SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #506 on: June 27, 2013, 07:14:03 pm »

SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
You also missed what I said about efhw......
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #507 on: June 27, 2013, 07:15:43 pm »

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #508 on: June 27, 2013, 07:16:52 pm »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #509 on: June 27, 2013, 07:20:02 pm »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town.  I can see that, although I disagree with it.

2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think.  I would guess 3 scum.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #510 on: June 27, 2013, 07:23:58 pm »

I'm here and catching up. Raerae, you voted for chairs, and you said you would policy vote all claimers, but do you actually think he's scum?

Strictly a policy vote.  I don't have any huge scumreads right now.  That said, he's getting super reread as soon as I catch up.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #511 on: June 27, 2013, 07:32:52 pm »

Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish

nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #512 on: June 27, 2013, 07:33:00 pm »

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.

I don't disagree that Eevee has largely been in the background, especially early in the game, but he just made a statement defending SB against TA's case.  And then you voted him.  Right after someone does something seems like a slightly odd time to vote him for not doing much.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #513 on: June 27, 2013, 08:11:11 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Here's the sb defense.

Here are the "reasons" Eevee lists: more likely sb is just stubborn; too obvious for scum; no reason to act that way as mafia.

Those three things aren't exactly compelling.  And they are safe things to say from any perspective.  And I don't think this counts as "doing something," as you put it. 

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #514 on: June 27, 2013, 08:29:40 pm »

SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
I agree with this. Absolutely no need to get so defensive, really!

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.
He actually make the exact opposite point - that I do not feel like Mean Girls Eevee.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #515 on: June 27, 2013, 08:31:20 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee

So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #516 on: June 27, 2013, 08:35:59 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee

So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?

You missed a PPE, I think.

But yes, smaller presence generally reads as scum Eevee.

I also think your sb defense was an easy towncred grab, and an easy way to see more active.  Like, you didn't even have to  read any posts to make that point.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #517 on: June 27, 2013, 08:40:57 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #518 on: June 27, 2013, 08:41:34 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #519 on: June 27, 2013, 08:43:19 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #520 on: June 27, 2013, 08:49:21 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #521 on: June 27, 2013, 08:50:49 pm »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town.  I can see that, although I disagree with it.

2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think.  I would guess 3 scum.



I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.

1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.


2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.



In this case, that's spiritbears.  And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire.  It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town.  Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you.  OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate.  That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle.  Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral.  Say scumScore=26).
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #522 on: June 27, 2013, 08:54:30 pm »

SB TA heat! I don't know if I like it or not. I think it's getting too heated. TA seems like regular TA and SB does seem a little different.

Anyway I think I'll do a scum to chum list.

Eevee
Ash
SB
 Everyone else
TA
Raerae
Me
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #523 on: June 27, 2013, 08:54:45 pm »

vote: eevee
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #524 on: June 27, 2013, 08:56:50 pm »

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
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