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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192255 times)

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #475 on: June 27, 2013, 02:57:42 pm »

Looking back through Ahoppy's posts, there's like nothing of substance or ANY reads in them. Ahoppy, when you catch up, give us your reads please.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #476 on: June 27, 2013, 03:01:41 pm »

You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).

I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence.  But really we just have a few people stating similar positions.  Most people haven't weighed in at all.  Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree?  IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.

Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know. 

And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.

I specifically did not do that in order to present it as an argument or evidence.  I did it because it's not an opinion I share, my opinion is
I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum.  Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant).
Meaning that I don't think either you or shraeye are scummier for the argument, because it was an argument and in my experience arguments offer very little information about the participants.

HOWEVER

"As was noted" by spiritbears himself (the target of the quote)
Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...

Now, I lessened that (in particular I don't think it's a consensus).  I said "many people".  Because raerae, ashersky, and TwistedArcher had all expressed that viewpoint (and I thought Eevee, but he actually didn't looking back). 

I tried to explain why I said his comment was "adding fuel to the fire" when I didn't say so for others who took a similar strength stand to him.  That reason was the vote.  In other words it has nothing to do with him saying "shraeye scummier" rather than "efhw scummier".  It's immaterial WHO he found scummier, what matters is the form of presentation.

Importantly, I never in that post argued for you being scummy, nor have I to my knowledge.  I have a fully 100% neutral read on you.

Honestly, if twistedarcher had made his post during the argument, I might have considered it inflammatory as well.  But he didn't, he made it after the argument was clearly not gaining traction.  So the only people of relevance here were (in my mind at the time) raerae, ashersky, and Eevee who all expressed the town v town sentiment.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #477 on: June 27, 2013, 03:24:58 pm »

[Now te author=Twistedarcher link=topic=8002.msg262465#msg262465 date=1372358580]
Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands yohave s toenssues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)

Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:

#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"

#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"

#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)

Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.

You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.

I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
[/quote]
Thanks! I appreciate your kindness...all of you. I can't get out much and you all have become like my family.  Days without mafia are hard to take!

Now..for the not so fun...

So whst I get from this post TA is basically you disagree with my opinion so that makes me scummy---and anyone that agrees with you towny....
Again this is classic scum argument: you are out on that limb by yourself there sb---lets hack it off.
My reading of shrseye is MY READ NOT YOURS. 
MY READ OF EFHW is MY READ NOT yours
I never asked you to agree with it.....but you on the other hand are demanding I agree with you...or you'll vote me, and then you'll railroad me....and then I'll be mislynched...all becaue I have a town read on efhw.
You probably realize I react very negatively to
Peer pressure. I won't change my view of efhw just because you all demand it.  (Btw--nk can tell you how swell I handled the pressure to read him as mafia before he wss mislunched...but I probably shoundt even bring that up)

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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #478 on: June 27, 2013, 03:38:37 pm »

@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read.  He's asking you to explain your read.  He's using the fact that it's different to point out why it needs explained.

I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind.  And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so.  If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #479 on: June 27, 2013, 04:21:44 pm »

@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read.  He's askiby o explain your read.  He's usingactive act that it's different to point out why it needs explained.

I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind.  And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so.  If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
That's kindof not true.
There was no other way to read TA....becausie he declared my read scummy and voted for me!
That was either pressure to change my vote, or it was a straight up: sb is mafia.
And actually it was both

As for my read on shraere...how many times to I have to say it.  I read his arguments and weaksauce case against efhw as scummy and weaksauce. i have a low tolerance for pushing bad cases on town reads (It read like the scummy weak case TA has pushed on me...
Actually Ta's case is even worse.
But becsue you all deemed efhw to hold the scumier position in the argument, then I am scum for agreeing with her.  As you pointed out TA-- I hsve read efhw as town most of the game.  How that is a part of your master scum case on me is beyond ridiculous.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #480 on: June 27, 2013, 04:31:19 pm »

Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of Shraeye. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to, and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHW. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #481 on: June 27, 2013, 04:31:50 pm »

Come in on the side of Shraeye = Come in on the side of EFHW
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #482 on: June 27, 2013, 04:35:00 pm »

proofreading is fun

Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #483 on: June 27, 2013, 05:03:50 pm »

proofreayou're is fun

Quote from: Twistedarcher link=topic=80. That's it02.msg262507#msg262507 date=1372365079
Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
That is just so pretentious. 
1) the case on you wasn't weak. I agreed with it mostly. ive found you mostly scummy and your pushiness does nothing to dissuade that read...
2) oh my reads are just so much garbage ....because they aren't yours...so I'm just going to believe someone else just because I'm an idiot. yeah. That's it.
3) it couldn't possibly be thay I legitimately agree with efhw's positions....no. it's just "arbitrary"
4)...do you listen to yourself???
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #484 on: June 27, 2013, 05:09:47 pm »

Spiritbears, I'm just saying what impression I get from reading it. I'm in no way trying to be pretentious, or saying that your views are inferior to mine in any way. Remember, this is mafia, we're TRYING to figure out when people are making real reads and when they are forcing reads because they're mafia. So calling people's reads into question is part of the game.

My case on you is in no way meant as a personal attack, and I hope you understand that it's not meant as much. I just simply think there's a good chance you drew mafia in this game, and I've stated why.

I apologize if I'm coming off as pretentious, but please try to read my case from a scum-hunting perspective, and not from a putting-you-down perspective.
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #485 on: June 27, 2013, 05:50:47 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #486 on: June 27, 2013, 06:00:50 pm »

Okay, so first thought:

In terms of Ash accusing raerae, the reactions, etc.  I've just read up to the point where Ash admitted he had no actual case and was just fishing for reactions.

The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron.  Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons.   Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player?  And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this).  I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though.  If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.

Other players had different reactions to the case.  TA acknowledged it, but refused to give an opinion until Ash gave a reason for his vote.  Ash points out that Eevee and Shraeye thought it was a ploy.  EFHW states this as well.  These are all normal reactions, in my mind.

The scummy people here are people who were around, and while this was going on, refused to acknowledge that this was even going on.  Ahoppy was present, and clamoring for scumhunting, but as far as I can, never once comments on Ash vs Raerae.  Sitting around talking about theory rather than acknowledging voting, which I think Ahoppy, Theorel, Chairs, and SB, are all guilty of, is what I'm most concerned about in this interaction.  It's so easy to talk about theory and not give yourself away as scum, and less easy to do so talking about interactions between players.  You leave less trails should you be later caught.  I think scum has an incentive to focus on theory talk, so think these players are scummy for doing so.

By the way, that theory talk was horrible for the readability of the thread.  You guys spent pages and pages theory talking about why you dislike theory talk (yay irony!).  That stuff doesn't make for good re-reads!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #487 on: June 27, 2013, 06:08:48 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".

It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!

Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?

I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.

Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #488 on: June 27, 2013, 06:11:25 pm »

Nkirbit, I think out of the group you mentioned (Theorel chairs Ahoppy SB), for the reasons of theory talking but not scumhunting, Ahoppy comes off scummiest to me. He hasn't contributed anything read wise, yet has worked up a healthy post count simply on theory. SB of course I find scummy for other reasons, but providing reads, and Theorel has been providing more reads than the others. Chairs I can't really read, but I think he's town because scum wouldn't item-claim like he has.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #489 on: June 27, 2013, 06:12:57 pm »

On EFHW:  I do agree that I get the same feel from EFHW here that I did in Shakespeare.  Whether that means that EFHW is able to hold her meta mostly constant regardless of being town or scum, or EFHW is scum here as well, I don't know.  EFHW totally deceived the crap out of me in Shakespeare, so she's capable of either.  I've never played a game with town!EFHW, so I can't be sure.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #490 on: June 27, 2013, 06:16:37 pm »

Eevee was vert active in the just completed mean girls...as scum.  I'm not quite ready to call his lurking scummy. But it could be....

"Hey guys!  Here's this thing that could be scummy!  I don't think it's scummy, but you all should!"

This is the scummiest post I've seen to date, enough so that I feel compelled to point it out.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #491 on: June 27, 2013, 06:17:25 pm »

To that point in my re-read as opposed to "to date" would make more sense, I guess.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #492 on: June 27, 2013, 06:22:31 pm »

I agree that Shraeye did not push a case on TA hard at all.  If you want to see Shraeye pushing a case against TA hard, go read the end of day 2 of pirates.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #493 on: June 27, 2013, 06:30:54 pm »


His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.


That bolded part doesn't seem scummy to me, though.  Like, if he were scum, wouldn't he see there's not the support there and try to slide away elsewhere?
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #494 on: June 27, 2013, 06:40:00 pm »

Ultimately, I don't know what to think about the EFHW vs Shraeye argument.  I could see it being town vs town, Shraeye as scum, EFHW as scum, any of those make sense to me.

What I will say about it is that raerae's reaction is towny-looking to me.  She made the same exact point in D1 of Shakespeare when TA and myself were yelling at each other, and was town here.  I think she comes off as towny in most cases.  The one case where I would be unsure is if EFHW turns up scum, because EFHW did appear to be losing in the court of public opinion, so scum!raerae could have pulled focus away from her teammate.  But I'm going to go with the explanation that raerae is town here, because it's just much more likely, so town points to raerae!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #495 on: June 27, 2013, 06:45:28 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view.  I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #496 on: June 27, 2013, 06:47:16 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #497 on: June 27, 2013, 06:48:21 pm »

Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee
Cool, cool cool cool.
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #498 on: June 27, 2013, 06:53:22 pm »

Time to end my parade of posts with reads!  Yay reads!

Scum to Chum (Since I hear people like this terminology!)

Ahoppy
Ta
{EFHW Eevee Mail-Mi SB Shraeye Theorel Xeiron}
Ashersky
Raerae
Chairs
Nkirbit

The group in brackets is all pretty much null-reads, and are listed alphabetically!  That's a lot of null-reads, I know :(.  Sway me!
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nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #499 on: June 27, 2013, 06:53:46 pm »

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
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