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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192180 times)

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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #450 on: June 26, 2013, 11:36:21 pm »

Popsquiz time!

Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel

I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on.  But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say.  But not really.  Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game.  Very useful later on.

Do you mean this literally?  That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now.  As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer?   Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one?  Or in general?  Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4?  Just wondering.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #451 on: June 27, 2013, 12:04:39 am »

SB, why do you think Shraeye is scummy and EFHW isn't?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #452 on: June 27, 2013, 02:48:46 am »

Popsquiz time!

Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel

I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on.  But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say.  But not really.  Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game.  Very useful later on.

Do you mean this literally?  That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now.  As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer?   Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one?  Or in general?  Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4?  Just wondering.

Would Lynch at this point is basically scummy reads.  Not necessarily hammer right this minute, but would hammer if it was deadline time.

Yes, very low threshold for D1 this early on.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #453 on: June 27, 2013, 07:25:24 am »

If this were deadline?
would lynch: anyone but myself
would not lynch: myself

As it stands now?
would lynch: no one
would not lynch: everyone

I've already given reads...none of those are strong enough to support a lynch or push against one at deadline.

I need to consider the efhw vs shraeye thing.  I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum.  Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant). 

In this case, that's spiritbears.  And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire.  It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town.  Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you.  OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate.  That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle.  Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral.  Say scumScore=26).

I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others.  I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.

raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town".  As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy.  Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town.  Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things.  I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.

Then TwistedArcher decided to go further than I do above and really take it to spiritbears.  It seems a little puffed up to me also, but it's still early.

ashersky and Eevee...there might be stuff to draw out of either of their recent posts, but I don't have anything at the moment.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #454 on: June 27, 2013, 08:08:00 am »

"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #455 on: June 27, 2013, 08:10:15 am »

"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion
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Eevee

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #456 on: June 27, 2013, 08:19:42 am »

I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.

I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #457 on: June 27, 2013, 08:23:56 am »

"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta

You still have yet to explain why you agree with efhw and not shraeye. Please answer this!
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #458 on: June 27, 2013, 08:25:21 am »

"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion

Fuel to the fire might be strong, I'll explain why I felt that way though:
I initially saw your vote as a joke (I mean your provided "reasoning" was riddler is scummy).  But your later arguments seemed to support it as not a joke.  You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).  But the fact that it's supported with a vote (though already existent) makes it seem stronger.  Compare: "this is probably town v. town but efhw seems scummier" to "vote for shraeye, shraeye seems scummier".  And I think you'll see where I'm coming from?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #459 on: June 27, 2013, 08:27:28 am »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #460 on: June 27, 2013, 08:30:36 am »

I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.

I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!

Because you need to post more and scumhunt more! I feel like you haven't gotten into the game yet which is a bit odd for you
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #461 on: June 27, 2013, 08:47:31 am »

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #462 on: June 27, 2013, 10:22:28 am »

I really dislike shyrae's insinuation that bescuse I find him more scummy than efhw, I must not be thinking fir myself...that kind of argument just gets under my skin....
Sorry, that's not what I was tyring to say.  I was pointing out how you and theorel were beginning to understand what I was saying about my side of the argument, and I suspect that that prompted EFHW to switch her tactic.  I'm not sure where you got that insinuation from.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #463 on: June 27, 2013, 10:45:39 am »

Ok, I've reread mine and EFHW's fight with a cooler head, and I realize that I need to settle down and keep my attention more broadly focus on all the players...sometimes I just get locked into self-confirming suspicion, and I really don't like to do that so early in a game as it leaves me with no thoughts and reads on the other players at all.  I can see the point that EFHW's posts could be pure misunderstanding instead of a little confusion mixed with maliciousness.

unvote
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #464 on: June 27, 2013, 11:21:42 am »

You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).

I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence.  But really we just have a few people stating similar positions.  Most people haven't weighed in at all.  Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree?  IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.

Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know. 

And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #465 on: June 27, 2013, 11:23:15 am »

Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered

Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record. 
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy
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Postpunk Noisegazr Shoegazing Punks [whathe]Spirit Bears on Faith Cannon Records.  confusing and confounding since 05

xeiron

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #466 on: June 27, 2013, 11:49:24 am »

I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #467 on: June 27, 2013, 12:33:34 pm »

sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #468 on: June 27, 2013, 12:41:58 pm »

So here's the thing - I don't want to continue any animosity b/w me and Shraeye, but he remains my top scum read at this point.  So I am going to have to leave my vote there without any intention of provoking anything - though if I become more convinced I may start advocating for his lynch.  My popsquiz:

Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel

No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit.  Would love to hear from you guys!
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #469 on: June 27, 2013, 01:47:51 pm »

Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.

spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #470 on: June 27, 2013, 01:56:52 pm »

sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
TY

I m sorry  for my unreadable posts.
Along with all my other stupid problems I have epilepsy,
and some days just can't make it through a post with seizing
Thsnk you all for your kind patience with me...
I know I don't deserve it mostly
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #471 on: June 27, 2013, 02:41:49 pm »

Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered

Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record. 
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy

I think I'm not being entirely clear.  Your vote + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as "I think shraeye is scum, we should lynch him."
Saying town v. town + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as, "I really don't think we should lynch either of these players."

One of those reads to me as encouraging conflict, while the other seeks reconciliation.  I find it more pro-town to seek reconciliation simply because most conflicts (not a vast majority, but most) are town v town.  I think that cooler, less emotional heads will tend to do better at finding scum.  I acknowledge that others disagree on this matter, but I've held this opinion forever and haven't seen anything to change my mind (although I've seen lots of bad lynches of emotional players to further cement my opinion on this matter).
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #472 on: June 27, 2013, 02:43:00 pm »

Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands your issues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)

Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:

#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"

#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"

#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)

Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.

You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.

I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #473 on: June 27, 2013, 02:53:33 pm »

Post count post count! (includes pre-game)

Ashersky - 73
Ahoppy - 66
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6

Thoughts on the post count:

1) Chairs, can you please edit your profile to make a goko or isotropic username? That way, it's easier to control + f and find how many posts you've made.

2) WOW, Ahoppy has 66 posts??? I would have sworn it would be like 1/3 of that. I need to go back and read what's he said, since I seriously don't remember anything significant. Mail-mi at 30 is also higher than I would have guessed, I remember nothing from him as well. These are the two that stick out to me as the more "empty" post counts.

3) Xeiron, Eevee, Nkirbit to a lesser degree...post more!!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #474 on: June 27, 2013, 02:54:50 pm »

Nevermind, I'm an idiot, Ahoppy has 33 posts, not 66. I was doublecounting and getting both his isotropic and goko username.

Ashersky - 73
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Ahoppy - 33
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6
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