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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192173 times)

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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #275 on: June 25, 2013, 04:14:23 pm »

@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.

Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.

I certainly wouldn't vote based on this.  But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful.  He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s.  "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie.  He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance.  BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.

I think the warning in the OP is more than enough to be 100% against claiming combinations. And I don't want people to be very careful - I want people to be very, very careful.
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #276 on: June 25, 2013, 04:14:57 pm »

Yeah, I'm not talking about a mass-claim using either method. I'm just wondering what sort of system we could use to move things around that gives scum the least benefit and town the most benefit.  I'm not sure what the best solution is, or if there even is one.

Is that what you're looking for as well theorel, or am I just misinterpreting all over the place?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #277 on: June 25, 2013, 04:22:31 pm »

I don't exactly understand Theorel's idea, and I have no idea idea what I'd claim if we went through with it. I understand having someone walk me through what we'd do goes against the point of it, but I don't think it would be very useful to me personally, since I can't really wrap my head around it.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #278 on: June 25, 2013, 04:25:01 pm »

I like the idea of using broad descriptions.  Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous.  But how do we want to go about doing this?  are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim?  I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).

However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting. 

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #279 on: June 25, 2013, 04:26:24 pm »

I like the idea of using broad descriptions.  Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous.  But how do we want to go about doing this?  are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim?  I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).

However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.

Why don't you go ahead and start us off then?  If you don't agree with any of the positions taken by Ash, shraeye, or me.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #280 on: June 25, 2013, 04:26:56 pm »

Wouldn't it be very easy for scum to manipulate a claiming system where it's not set in stone what we're doing, and instead are freely putting information forward?
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #281 on: June 25, 2013, 04:37:56 pm »

I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #282 on: June 25, 2013, 04:41:36 pm »

I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....

For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum.  Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #283 on: June 25, 2013, 04:46:11 pm »

I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....

For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum.  Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
Sorry wrong term.   It looks like scum trying to push a bad wagon...
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #284 on: June 25, 2013, 05:04:42 pm »

Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #285 on: June 25, 2013, 05:10:42 pm »

Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #286 on: June 25, 2013, 05:14:37 pm »

Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

I'm here now.  The time difference is severe.  I'm 16 hours ahead of forum time, so it's already tomorrow here.  I've skimmed up to now, so now I'll go back and respond to specific posts that need it.

Also, big raerae reveal to come.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #287 on: June 25, 2013, 05:16:40 pm »

I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one

Some talk of no lynch since I left -- none of it very scummy, although no lynch favors scum early in the game.

I actually believe that no lynch is absolutely the wrong move on THIS PARTICULAR D1, given we had a night start.  I think one of the few compelling arguments for a D1 no lynch is that 1) this is RMM and 2) we all can do stuff at night that is cool and maybe will throw off scum.  Except we all already had that opportunity.  So skipping D1 and essentially going with a 2-night start sounds bad to me.

On raerae, as mentioned, I'll get to that.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #288 on: June 25, 2013, 05:17:07 pm »

Chairs:  Just as a heads up, you really shouldn't be talking about other games that are still going on.  There are players who are in both games, and those who aren't probably reading both anyway.  Talking about completed games is fine, though.

+1

This is a key point for new folks to remember.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #289 on: June 25, 2013, 05:17:50 pm »

Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression.  I didn't go back and look into depth about it.  Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice

ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #290 on: June 25, 2013, 05:19:07 pm »

I tried to post something last night, but I wasn't feeling well, and I got a new replies thing and maybe forgot to hit post again?  Anyways, it was sometime before ashersky's post.

Anyways, I find theory discussion useful and interesting in general, and am always willing to go in-depth into it.  I generally do so early because it's far more interesting than RVS (and usually helps transition out of RVS, and I don't believe it has the downside of people finding one another scummy for their positions on theory).

For this game in particular, as ash pointed out there are 3 things that can be claimed.  Roles, inventory-related things, and results.  There's of course also flavor names which are perhaps attached to inventory-related items.  But that's the claiming side of things.  I think there may be limited usefulness in claiming inventory-related things, but probably not right now.  BUT claiming is not the limit of theory talk, it's just a beginning.

There's also set-up speculation.  Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6).  I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it.  With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition).  This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.

Then there's the other part of theory.  Where we make plans and such to optimize the usefulness of PRs.  Now, in this game we know nothing about PRs.  BUT we all have these items.  There must be some way to share items, and it seems likely to me that we all have the same means of sharing them (though there may be additional ways in various PRs).  I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions).  It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have.  Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.

Of course, there are a few difficulties here.  In particular, how directed is our item sharing?  What do people need?  How do we NOT lose items that are powerful.  But I think at least some of these things merit discussion.

Finally, soft deadline.  Let's make one and try to get day1 done by then.

Agree on a soft deadline -- I prefer July 2.

This is normal theorel, for those that don't know.  This is absolutely, 100% what I expected from Theo's first in-game post.  It provides an exactly null read, too.

Were you scum in that game where Voltgloss and I had a HUGE fight and you road that to victory?  Or was that eHal?  I always get you two confused.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #291 on: June 25, 2013, 05:20:07 pm »

The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.

On catching up, this is the most sensible response I've seen.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #292 on: June 25, 2013, 05:21:32 pm »

I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).

What is "paper-pushing"?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #293 on: June 25, 2013, 05:22:54 pm »

Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.

I think the question was actually whether item-based powers are affected by role powers, and vice versa.  You may be able to answer that one.  I'll phrase it a different way:

Arch: Do role powers and item powers interact the same way with powers in both categories?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #294 on: June 25, 2013, 05:24:49 pm »

I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

These are bad posts.  Not scummy, necessarily, but bad.  Don't say things like that.  It gives away information about yourself, and tempts others to also give away information.

You are helping scum.


(Or, you are scum playing the wifom game.  But I doubt it.)
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #295 on: June 25, 2013, 05:25:23 pm »

I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least

See?  It tempts others into giving away information.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #296 on: June 25, 2013, 05:27:39 pm »

One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.

Hmm...hadn't really considered that.  I was actually talking about something different though.  I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out.  It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each.  The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.


If I get 9 items, it would be hilarious, but I think not as good as 3 people having 3 items.  I find it almost impossible to think there is a 9-item combo out there, and if there is, it has to be a "auto-win if you use this" invention.

I think the bigger question, related to all talk around this quote, is this:

How do people decide who to send stuff to?  On N0, only scum knew anything about anyone else.  Town didn't.  So if you would have sent something out on N0, you would have sent it out with ZERO info about the person you gifted.  So you either had to be very sure you weren't hurting town with your random send.
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #297 on: June 25, 2013, 05:29:07 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk.

It's an okay option.  I still think not knowing what else is in the game makes this futile, though.

How about offers?  Someone could say "I have a bazooka, who wants one?" and then we lynch the scum who asks for it.
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #298 on: June 25, 2013, 05:45:44 pm »

Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression.  I didn't go back and look into depth about it.  Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice

I think you mean TA and shraeye.

It's happening again!  shraerae in da house!
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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #299 on: June 25, 2013, 05:46:53 pm »

I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce.  At least it is sauce, something we have very little of.  I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.

TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.
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