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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192198 times)

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Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #250 on: June 25, 2013, 02:11:39 pm »

Vote Count 1.3

xeiron (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (2) ashersky, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
Eevee (1) mail-mi

Not Voting: (6) Eevee,nTwistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.

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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #251 on: June 25, 2013, 02:30:49 pm »

Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not.  Don't send to people you find scummy.  Do send to your townreads.  This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender.  Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #252 on: June 25, 2013, 02:33:51 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
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spiritbears

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #253 on: June 25, 2013, 02:35:18 pm »

Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not.  Don't send to people you find scummy.  Do send to your townreads.  This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender.  Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #254 on: June 25, 2013, 02:40:08 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #255 on: June 25, 2013, 02:41:41 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #256 on: June 25, 2013, 02:44:34 pm »

I think that would probably actually be better. Inventory claiming would reveal a lot to scum. Especially if no combining was successful last night.

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #257 on: June 25, 2013, 02:59:31 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk. 
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #258 on: June 25, 2013, 03:20:38 pm »

Here are the reasons that made me vote Twisted before:

Posts #92/#93
given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways

And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Two things here jumped out at me, and those are the two things I left in the quote. First, Twisted says that we should be able to skip RVS because we've had a night.  But unless people come out and immediately claim some night-result, we really don't get to skip the standard start-up.  Even if somebody found scum N0, they have to wait for the thread to fill up with posts and such, so they can build a case on their target.  Otherwise, it will be immediately obvious that the person is a PR, and it would be akin to role claiming.  And that's something you said you were against. (Not just claiming combinations, but in post #95, you say you completely agree with raerae's idea of not claiming anything).

The second thing that jumped out at me was that you stated a very staunch opinion on claiming combinations, and then IMMEDIATELY toned it down in post #93.  This put you on my suspicion radar, and I kept a closer watch on your next few posts.
More important point:
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
This was in response to mail-mi and raerae's joke about claiming that ham is good.  This is fun and silly, and a perfectly good way to start a game, but I don't like spending tons of time just joking around and cluttering up the thread.  Twisted's response to this quick exchange really stands out because, REMEMBER, he said that he hates silly RVS.  That makes this post nothing more than a distraction, and it clutters up our thread.  People can recall in the MeanGirls Mod QT, that I was consistently pointing out that long cluttered threads really only help scum, because nobody ever wants to do a reread.

Last item:
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
I don't get this, Twisted says that he understands raerae's position on theory talk (which is post #98 by her), but disagrees with how useful it is.  "The uselessness of theory talk" IS raerae's position.  You can't simultaneously agree with her but disagree with her main point.  This post is just pure appeasement.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #259 on: June 25, 2013, 03:34:38 pm »

Yes, RVS is silly silly silly. I say that every game. I'd much rather talk theory or do anything than spent 24-48 hours doing nothing. And I'm still 100% against claiming combinations, unless someone has a very, very, very good reason to do so.

Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #260 on: June 25, 2013, 03:35:00 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

Asking for items makes it more likely the scum will figure out what power you are trying to get.  Also, there is a whole universe of items in the world.  What are the chances of any of the ones we think of being in the game?

I don't think we should fully inventory claim.  That would be useful if we could do it anonymously, but I assume some of the items will have obvious uses and should not be identified with any one player. 

But I bet there are items without obvious uses that a creative approach could match up with other existing items.  Person X has some paper cups they can share.  They could send them out randomly or send them to Person Y who says they have string.  Presto chango, a communication device!  THOSE WERE EXAMPLES AND DO NOT REFLECT KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUAL ITEMS IN THE GAME.  The more people we have mentioning innocuous items, the less scum can use the info to choose a target - this is part of what I meant when I said we could use WIFOM.  It depends how many people have seemingly innocuous items to mention. 

I also don't see a benefit of waiting.  Each time a townie dies we lose access to the items they share. 
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #261 on: June 25, 2013, 03:40:55 pm »

Other random things:

Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
Yes, Eevee had only posted 3 times in the first 24 hours of the game.  THAT's definitely a reasonable reason to find him suspicious.  Sometime, you gotta realize that people get busy.  That's just life.

There's also set-up speculation.  Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6).  I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it.  With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition).  This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.
Theorel, what makes you so certain that this isn't multi-ball?

I have a meta-based townread on ashersky, he seems quite aggressive and inyourface - which is how I think he intentionally plays town to "show" everyone he is town.
I agree with this; also, I like the way ash has stirred up conversation around his raerae vote (the reason I copied his style there).
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #262 on: June 25, 2013, 03:43:31 pm »

It says no multiball in the OP
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shraeye

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #263 on: June 25, 2013, 03:44:42 pm »

Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS.  I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in  (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).

Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside.  Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #264 on: June 25, 2013, 03:48:48 pm »

Another point - we are trying to make pro-town devices.  If a scum gets a cop power, it doesn't really help them.  We don't have NK's, what would they do with a doctor?  It's worth trying b/c the chances are greater that a townie will get the powers.  If I think my V-shaped twig shared with someone with rubber band would make a slingshot, I won't send it.  My plan helps us avoid dangerous combinations to some degree.  To abuse this, scum would have to think of innocuous items that would get them other items that they have other plans for.

The possibility of stealing:  This is true.  If scum can steal and they have the twig and hear about a rubber band, they might try to steal it.  But if we are making say 4 powers and they make 1, it is probably still worth it for town to proceed.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #265 on: June 25, 2013, 03:54:02 pm »

So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk.

I think this is NOT a good option, because it gives information on what you are trying to make.  Saying what you WANT gives a lot more information than saying what you HAVE, so long as you are careful about what you say you have.  I find encouraging this option somewhat scummy, actually.

Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #266 on: June 25, 2013, 03:55:40 pm »

Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS.  I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in  (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).

Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside.  Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.

Okay, I completely disagree with this. I dislike RVS, but going along with it and making a joke once, one that didn't even vote for a player, happens. What exactly are you accusing me of doing with my RVS post? Looking at the thread, seeing an opportunity, saying "Yes! I can add one more post in! Bwahahaha, they're not going to be able to re-read the thread now!" I just don't get how making a RVS post about ham being a terrible lunchmeat gives you a scum read, or a town read, or any read whatsoever.

You can call it appeasement, I disagree, but whatever. It's not like I can sit here and convince you what was going through my head. I just think you've got nothing here, and it's more likely that you always will just read me scummy.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #267 on: June 25, 2013, 03:56:22 pm »



Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.

Why did you first think he was scum?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
« Reply #268 on: June 25, 2013, 03:58:53 pm »

EFHW - As for pro-town powers -- I think everything that has no scum utility will be changed to a pro-scum item, if necessary. Not sure if Doc would be one of the ones switched, though.

Setup Specific Information

Regardless of the number of objects in the combination, the different combinations make will make thematic sense and shouldn’t be too difficult to guess.  I will say that the combinations themselves are also all set in stone and will be revealed at game’s end. The most a combination will vary will be whether it's scum or town so that each side can make use of the object, but it will still make thematic sense and only a few objects are split depending on alignment. Guesses you don't use will be rolled over to the following night.


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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #269 on: June 25, 2013, 04:01:36 pm »

EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #270 on: June 25, 2013, 04:04:21 pm »

@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.

Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.

I certainly wouldn't vote based on this.  But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful.  He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s.  "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie.  He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance.  BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #271 on: June 25, 2013, 04:06:08 pm »

So, then the question is, do we have innocuous items we can claim?  Or would we be better of asking for vague items?

I mean the point is that you could ask for like a "container" or a "power source" or a "connecting thing".
None of those would give anything away, and some people might need something similar.  Or we could claim things like "ball of string", "glass jar", or "pen".  Which have no obvious uses, but someone might say "aha, that needs this item I have".

Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree?  I dunno, maybe neither works.

People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise.  I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.

Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have.  And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #272 on: June 25, 2013, 04:08:20 pm »

EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO!  I'm saying the opposite.  If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot.  But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it.  Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #273 on: June 25, 2013, 04:09:56 pm »

Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree?  I dunno, maybe neither works.

People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise.  I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.

Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have.  And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.

This makes sense and I would be open to it.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #274 on: June 25, 2013, 04:11:53 pm »

EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO!  I'm saying the opposite.  If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot.  But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it.  Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.

Ah, okay.

I disagree that the person shouldn't send you the item though if they're town. Odds are, you're town too, and unless they have a strong scum read, I'd advocate sending it. Getting combinations will probably be necessary to win -- I think it's worth the risk of giving an item to scum for the much better chance of giving an item to town.
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