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Author Topic: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)  (Read 192258 times)

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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #225 on: June 25, 2013, 11:10:56 am »

Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
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chairs

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #226 on: June 25, 2013, 11:11:51 am »

re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it.  I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.

July 3rd is fine.

No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere.  But does that ever happen?

I'm intrigued by this concept, given that you've tempered it with "only non-obviously-good items here".

Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...

I think the concept here is that few people claim what they have to give, just perhaps stating one of the things in their inventory (not necessarily their starting item, since we've all had a wonderful trade round already :D) that they don't (yet) see a use for, and then see what people give that person and try to make cool stuff out of it.

EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #227 on: June 25, 2013, 11:13:40 am »

Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
We could have several people do this so there is no single target.  Or just one person and hope we have a doctor to protect them.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #228 on: June 25, 2013, 11:17:44 am »

Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #229 on: June 25, 2013, 11:18:52 am »

I have always considered it this way:
A town-directed kill has some possibility of hitting scum.  A scum-directed kill has 0 possibility of hitting scum.  We want to maximize the number of town-directed kills in order to maximize the chance that we hit scum.  This means (IMO, which not everyone shares) that town should (generally) take every kill they can.  Determining when town should NOT take a kill that it has the opportunity to take is really where parity comes in.

In role madness, there are undoubtedly ways for town to disrupt parity.  Because town can disrupt parity, all parity arguments are essentially meaningless, and we should take every kill we can get, because that maximizes our win potential.  (again this is my OPINION.  There are potentially some unquantifiable gains from not lynching/not killing.  Galzria/Robz love the argument of "keeping town voices alive".  I believe that the quantifiable gains of extra town-directed deaths are greater than the unquantifiable gains of "town voices"...but since the latter is unquantifiable, it really may be bigger.  I acknowledge this, I just don't believe it.)

(For those unaware, here's the parity stuff.  Simplest case: 
-4 players, 1 scum (i.e. 3 town).  If town is lynched then there are 2 town v. 1 scum.  Scum kills one of the town players, and scum wins.  Each town player has a 1 in 3 chance to find the scum. 
-IF one of the town players is eliminated first then there are 2 town v. 1 scum.  Each town has a 50/50 chance of getting the scum.  if town is lynched, scum wins.  Thus, it benefits town to no-lynch and force scum to kill one of them off.

BUT this argument assumes that the town players can't stop the kill, or kill at night.  If one of those 2 unkilled town players is a doctor or vigilante, then the 3v1 situation has potential to be better for town.  A vigilante can shoot after the kill, this gives a 50/50 chance in ADDITION to the ~1/4 chance of the lynch.  If one is a jailkeeper, he can save the night kill and get the advantages of both days (if he himself isn't killed).  If one is a doctor/roleblocker same thing except guaranteed to find scum if they survive and choose correctly.

So, that's why I said that parity doesn't apply.)
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #230 on: June 25, 2013, 11:46:09 am »

Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
That makes a lot more sense... sorry I read wrong

chairs

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #231 on: June 25, 2013, 12:17:15 pm »

I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).

Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #232 on: June 25, 2013, 12:18:22 pm »

Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.
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raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #233 on: June 25, 2013, 12:20:50 pm »

The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #234 on: June 25, 2013, 12:24:26 pm »

The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.

You suggested that if I request a tube, and scum has a tube, that scum won't give it to me.  He's asking whether you think scum would give me the tube if I don't say "I want a tube".
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #235 on: June 25, 2013, 12:27:03 pm »

The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #236 on: June 25, 2013, 12:36:15 pm »

The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.

Isn't that what I said?  Tube or no tube, scum isn't giving up items.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #237 on: June 25, 2013, 12:45:36 pm »

Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

raerae

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #238 on: June 25, 2013, 12:52:00 pm »

Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I brought up both those issues actually.  Scum won't give something up or we give scum something they want.  Read the quote again maybe?  Maybe it's because I wrote it, but I don't see why there is confusion with that quote.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #239 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:16 pm »

Raerae, I have no strong scum or town reads at this point, unfortunately. I'm suspicious that Ashersky STILL hasn't said why he finds you scummy, but I'm thrown off by him right now, and I'm not sure whether it's more likely a scum or town move from him. I'm also still wanting to hear from Shraeye on why he non-RVS voted for me. Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.

July 3rd deadline is fine with me.

I agree with Eevee that we shouldn't random-lynch. It's less fun, as he says, and won't we just be left in the same stage D2, unless someone lucked into a successful investigation?

As for no-lynch...I think it makes a lot of sense in this game actually. One reason why is that it keeps all of the items in the game for longer. Now, we have two chances for every item to get into town hands, rather than only one chance. Whether or not this is actually worth it, I'm not sure, but it's definitely a point to consider.
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #240 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:37 pm »

Ah. The bulk of the quote was the first part, which I didn't see as a problem. The very past line covers the other stuff. I see that now, no confusion.  Still, I think it is something we need to address if we're planning any item discussion.

nkirbit

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #241 on: June 25, 2013, 01:01:46 pm »

The more town who are alive, the higher chance town will end up with items. That's intriguing and a decent reason to no-lynch if we do not have a great candidate
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #242 on: June 25, 2013, 01:06:57 pm »

Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
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chairs

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #243 on: June 25, 2013, 01:12:43 pm »

I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #244 on: June 25, 2013, 01:16:56 pm »

I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least
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AHoppy

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #245 on: June 25, 2013, 01:21:55 pm »

I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage

Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #246 on: June 25, 2013, 01:24:59 pm »

One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.
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theorel

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #247 on: June 25, 2013, 01:39:50 pm »

One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.

Hmm...hadn't really considered that.  I was actually talking about something different though.  I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out.  It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each.  The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.

As for what each single player does with their items, that brings up a question of how many times it benefits a player to make a given item.  It has been stated that the results are not always 1-shot at least.  Hmm, that merits a mod-question I think:
Can a player use multiple item-generated roles at one time? (including generating the same role more than once and using it multiple times in one night)? (Also can he use an item-generated role and his given role at the same time)?
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Archetype

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #248 on: June 25, 2013, 01:42:28 pm »

A player can use as many of his 'invented' roles as he wants per night in addition to any of his normal power roles.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
« Reply #249 on: June 25, 2013, 01:45:13 pm »

Oh, I misread your point then. Yes, that's true. We definitely shouldn't give Ashersky 9 items!
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