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Author Topic: I need to remove some cards from my games  (Read 52324 times)

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Watno

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #200 on: May 02, 2013, 12:06:56 pm »
0

Does Fishing village really help hitting $3p in t3/4?

Yes.

If you buy Potion/X with your opening 4/3 there are 12! = 479,001,600 ways to order your 12 cards after the shuffle. (Yes, there are lots of duplicates, but to avoid probability traps let's count them all anyway.) For how many of these can you buy a Familiar in turn 3 or 4?

SilverFishing Village
Turn 3156,643,200143,942,400
Turn 4156,643,200171,158,400
Turn 3+4313,286,400315,100,800

So the increased probability of buying it t4 makes up for the decreased probability for t3, and all in all you are almost 0.6% more likely to get it in t3/4 if you go for Fishing Village instead of Silver.

(Now I'm getting interested in comparing this with some Xs, but don't have time right now.)
wow, thanks for doing the math. so in one of 200 familiar games with fishing village buying it will be better than :p

but I actually thought fishing village would significantly hurt your chances to get familiar, and probably wouldn't have opened with fishing village for that reason.
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Davio

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #201 on: May 02, 2013, 12:54:20 pm »
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At least the difference between them is so small that there should be other deciding factors to go one way or the other.
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Awaclus

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #202 on: May 02, 2013, 12:58:50 pm »
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but I actually thought fishing village would significantly hurt your chances to get familiar, and probably wouldn't have opened with fishing village for that reason.
See, it's totally a skill card.  8)

Though, I have to admit that I thought the odds would be more in Fishing Village's favor, and I would have opened FV/Potion instead of Sage/Potion for example and gone for the FV instead of Silver even if Silver was going to be more useful in my deck later.
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #203 on: May 02, 2013, 12:59:48 pm »
0

Hinterlands is more like "pure" Dominion.

Nah, it's got that crazy on-gain mechanic.



True, but so does Mint, so on-gain abilities aren't a problem for him.

I never thought of on-gain abilities as straying too far from the basic rules. It's a slight tweak.

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think the problem the OP is having is that he seems to have conflicting goals. He wants to check out the cards of the expansions, whose purpose is to add to the variety in Dominion by doing something different, but he doesn't like cards which are too different.

I simply said I do not like the cards that also effects the next round, that is, only the cards duration. then I would not buy seaside. saboteur no appeals to many people because it is broken in 3-4 players. I do not know why it is so strange! I like different mechanisms, just do not want the cards duration
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eHalcyon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #204 on: May 02, 2013, 01:07:46 pm »
+2

I think the point is that we cannot predict your tastes.  You say you don't like Duration cards -- well, Durations are a Seaside thing, so you don't have to worry about them in any other expansion.  But there was no way we could have predicted that you wouldn't like Durations, just like there's no way we can know if you'd like Potions, or on-gain effects, or on-trash effects.  You said you didn't like Cornucopia cards but there wasn't a specific reason for that either.

If we had a better idea of why you dislike certain cards, it would help us give advice.  Saboteur isn't broken even in 3-4p, though it can feel broken.  But it isn't really.  No cards in Dominion are broken.  Although this may depend on your definition of "broken" -- is it a card that always dominates every game it's in?  No Dominion card is like that.  Is it a card that is never purchased in an any game?  Again, no card is like that.

Durations aren't broken either.  Why don't you like them?  Is it that you have to remember it the next turn?  There are different things you can do to make it easier to remember.  I can't really think of anything else.  In fact, most people agree that Seaside is one of the best expansions.

So unless you give us a better idea of what you don't like and why, we can't really offer much in the way of suggestions.  The best advice is really to just try things out.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #205 on: May 02, 2013, 01:09:20 pm »
0

I think the point is that we cannot predict your tastes.  You say you don't like Duration cards -- well, Durations are a Seaside thing, so you don't have to worry about them in any other expansion.  But there was no way we could have predicted that you wouldn't like Durations, just like there's no way we can know if you'd like Potions, or on-gain effects, or on-trash effects.  You said you didn't like Cornucopia cards but there wasn't a specific reason for that either.

If we had a better idea of why you dislike certain cards, it would help us give advice.  Saboteur isn't broken even in 3-4p, though it can feel broken.  But it isn't really.  No cards in Dominion are broken.  Although this may depend on your definition of "broken" -- is it a card that always dominates every game it's in?  No Dominion card is like that.  Is it a card that is never purchased in an any game?  Again, no card is like that.

Durations aren't broken either.  Why don't you like them?  Is it that you have to remember it the next turn?  There are different things you can do to make it easier to remember.  I can't really think of anything else.  In fact, most people agree that Seaside is one of the best expansions.

So unless you give us a better idea of what you don't like and why, we can't really offer much in the way of suggestions.  The best advice is really to just try things out.

This is exactly what I was saying, just worded much better.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #206 on: May 02, 2013, 01:22:59 pm »
0

How did you come up with those numbers? I tried to run it in a break (okay, no sophisticated way of making sure there wasn't a mistake), but what I got was that:
The only way for FV(or equivalently lighthouse) to help you is if it is in your t3 hand *and* your t4 hand is C-C-E-E-P. The chances of this happening are 5 in 88.
The only way for FV to hurt you is if you have FV-C-E-E-P on turn 3 OR 4 (instead of having the silver). The chances of this happening are 7 in 66.
Ergo, you lose more than you gain, and your overall chances of getting familiar on t3-t4 decrease by 13 in 264, or a hair under 5%.

Anyone see a mistake with my math?

Kuildeous

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #207 on: May 02, 2013, 01:43:41 pm »
0

Saboteur isn't broken even in 3-4p, though it can feel broken. 

Handy checklist for if a card is broken:

1. Is the card relatively new to you?
2. Did you ignore it?
3. Did your opponent(s) buy it?
4. Did you lose the game?

If you answer yes to all of these, then you may be tempted to claim that the card is broken. It might not even be the fault of the card that you lost, but if your opponent(s) bought the card (especially several copies), then it's easy to assume it's broken.

I know we felt that way about Pirate Ship when Seaside first came out. Man, that card seemed so broken. Then one day I chose not to buy it, and I won. It was such an eye-opener.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #208 on: May 02, 2013, 01:45:54 pm »
+2

Saboteur isn't broken even in 3-4p, though it can feel broken. 

Handy checklist for if a card is broken:

Did it get to print?

ftfy

GigaKnight

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #209 on: May 02, 2013, 02:51:39 pm »
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I don't think it's particularly wise to focus on a specific word in discussion happening over Google translate.  You guys really took the word "broken" and ran with it, but he may just mean that a number of people don't think it's fun.

If nothing else, I hope this thread teaches F.DS to be a little bit less pedantic.
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #210 on: May 02, 2013, 03:06:24 pm »
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In fact, I want to say that there are people like me who have eliminated saboteur from the game, and I also read that it is banned in some tournaments. so I think that is not a good card, maybe it is not broken, but it certainly is not good. About seaside, I do not like the mechanism duration because I do not like to remember the bonus that I will have next turn. I like the normal mechanical where each round is played and then cleaning it. I do not like alchemy because of potions. I do not like  cornucopia because the prize cards come out only if there is a tournament, otherwise adds little. I like interaction, and I'm looking for attack card but not frustrating as saboteur.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #211 on: May 02, 2013, 03:12:55 pm »
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The fact that it is being translated is reason why we should better define what "broken" means here.

"Frustrating" is also a tough call -- it's subjective.  You find Saboteur frustrating, but you did not mention Saboteur or Swindler.  I guarantee that there are players who find those two attacks much more frustrating than Saboteur.
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jsh357

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #212 on: May 02, 2013, 03:15:45 pm »
+1

Being banned in 'some tournaments' means nothing; I played in a tournament where the TO banned Village and Witch, which is just silly if you know anything about the game.
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lespeutere

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #213 on: May 02, 2013, 03:16:24 pm »
+2

The fact that it is being translated is reason why we should better define what "broken" means here.

"Frustrating" is also a tough call -- it's subjective.  You find Saboteur frustrating, but you did not mention Saboteur Torturer or Swindler.  I guarantee that there are players who find those two attacks much more frustrating than Saboteur.

FTFY
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KingZog3

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #214 on: May 02, 2013, 03:18:13 pm »
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The fact that it is being translated is reason why we should better define what "broken" means here.

"Frustrating" is also a tough call -- it's subjective.  You find Saboteur frustrating, but you did not mention Saboteur or Swindler.  I guarantee that there are players who find those two attacks much more frustrating than Saboteur.
He did mention Saboteur.
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Awaclus

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #215 on: May 02, 2013, 03:26:18 pm »
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I do not like  cornucopia because the prize cards come out only if there is a tournament
The prize cards are Tournament. That's like saying that the Smithy card comes out only if there is a Smithy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #216 on: May 02, 2013, 04:21:10 pm »
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The fact that it is being translated is reason why we should better define what "broken" means here.

"Frustrating" is also a tough call -- it's subjective.  You find Saboteur frustrating, but you did not mention Saboteur Torturer or Swindler.  I guarantee that there are players who find those two attacks much more frustrating than Saboteur.

FTFY

Whoops!  Yes, I meant Torturer.  This is the first "FTFY" I've seen in a while that isn't a joke. :P
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GigaKnight

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #217 on: May 02, 2013, 04:34:00 pm »
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The fact that it is being translated is reason why we should better define what "broken" means here.

"Frustrating" is also a tough call -- it's subjective.  You find Saboteur frustrating, but you did not mention Saboteur or Swindler.  I guarantee that there are players who find those two attacks much more frustrating than Saboteur.

By all means, seek a better definition.  Several posts started to discuss whether it was "broken" before anybody agreed on what bodybuilder was trying to say.

And, yeah, of course all these things are subjective. I didn't mention other controversial cards because they don't elicit the strong feelings that Saboteur does. :)  In particular, I wanted to voice that I've played this game for years and my opinion of Saboteur remains negative.  Experience doesn't automatically mean you appreciate all the cards, nor should it, right?

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KingZog3

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #218 on: May 02, 2013, 06:54:37 pm »
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Experience doesn't automatically mean you appreciate all the cards, nor should it, right?

Agreed. All the cards are balanced, but some aren't fun. It's a matter of preference.
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Iron Hunny

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #219 on: May 03, 2013, 05:14:03 am »
+1

In fact, I want to say that there are people like me who have eliminated saboteur from the game, and I also read that it is banned in some tournaments.

Irrelevant. Tournaments ban things all the time for no reason other than it might give a SLIGHT advantage to the player. Even if whatever was banned had TONS of play testing (like Dominion), people will still ban stuff because they deem it "unfair". Personal opinion doesn't change the fact that Saboteur has been play tested a lot and is deemed by DXV to be a balanced card.

so I think that is not a good card, maybe it is not broken, but it certainly is not good.

Again, it's a matter of perspective. Do you want to get slightly ahead and Saboteur is on the board to destroy your opponents deck? If so, then go for it. If you think you can find a better combo, use that instead. There's really no "bad" or "good" cards, just how you use them. Saboteur is a pure attack card. It can make you jump ahead by trashing their Province or it will trash their actions and mess up their strategy. If you don't like it, fine, but it's no reason to remove it from the game. Someone else might like it and use it.

About seaside, I do not like the mechanism duration because I do not like to remember the bonus that I will have next turn. I like the normal mechanical where each round is played and then cleaning it.

If you read the rules to Seaside, it's really not that difficult of a concept. You leave the duration card out so you don't have to remember it from memory. That's how they work.

It also looks like you are disliking things just because it's a new mechanic. It's typically the mindset of someone who hasn't played many games and doesn't grasp the multitude of things Dominion showcases. Most beginners don't like trashing because they don't want to lose cards. However, if you take out all the junk in your deck, you are most likely to win (Edge Case: You Open Death Cart/Chapel, Chapel everything besides Death Cart, then use Death Cart on Chapel, don't buy anything, play Death cart again, then trash Death Cart because you didn't trash an action). You say you like cleaning everything up because it's "normal". Duration Cards don't change that, you just clean up everything minus the duration cards for that turn. Then on the next turn you clean it up.

I do not like alchemy because of potions. I do not like  cornucopia because the prize cards come out only if there is a tournament, otherwise adds little. I like interaction, and I'm looking for attack card but not frustrating as saboteur.

It's becoming increasingly more and more obvious that whenever you see something new Dominion offers you reject it immediately. Also, you are making very big generalizations that already put you in the mood to hate something. It's like a kid who gets fed a hamburger. The kid goes CRAZY for the hamburger and loves it. Then when you try to give the kid something else like a salad, the kid just says "Yeah, but it doesn't have meat. I like the meat the hamburger offers". OF COURSE the first thing you try is going to appear perfect. That doesn't mean everything that comes afterward is flawed and "adds little". We don't know what you like. We are showing you all the different flavors and dishes yet you cling onto the original burger you were offered with Dominion and deny everything else even though you haven't tried the other meals.

Someone said it earlier about how Dominion offers some complex mechanics in the base set and the following expansions; if you don't like what Dominion has to offer to change up the game so it isn't the same game every time, then maybe Dominion isn't the game for you.

Again, it's best that you play a dozen or so games with each expansion and have it influence your decision for later games. If I play several games of Dominion: Intrigue and find that I personally don't like Secret Chamber, it will have a small influence over me for randomizing games. I'll take a look at Secret Chamber and say "Does it look like it will offer something in this game?" If it does, even in the slightest, I'll keep it in the game. If it doesn't, I'll look to see if I could maybe replace that one card with another. I DON'T remove it from the game and never consider it ever again, which is what you seem to suggest every time you dislike a new card or a new expansion that you don't have.

tl;dr You should keep all the cards and have experience, not first impressions like "Sabotuer is bad. It's broken. I don't like it.", dictate which cards to use. This topic is a bit silly now.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:06:57 pm by Iron Hunny »
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pst

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #220 on: May 03, 2013, 05:36:34 am »
0

How did you come up with those numbers?

I answered in a new topic.
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brokoli

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #221 on: May 03, 2013, 07:24:34 am »
+4

If you think Cornucopia adds little, I can't do anything for you.
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