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[Davio]

Wishing Well is maybe a bit more easy to understand if you compare it to Laboratory.
Laboratory is a $5 card which reliably gives +2 Cards, +1 Action.

How would you price a card which, say, gives +1 Card, +1 Action 50% of the time and +2 Cards, +1 Action the other 50%?
I think it might be a solid $3, like Wishing Well is.

But with Wishing Well you can improve the odds of getting it right by
a) Knowing which card you have most of in your deck, in the beginning it's Copper
b) Knowing exactly which card is on top of your deck by using Scout, Apothecary, Navigator and others

I don't think you should look at Wishing Well and think you've failed if you didn't get it right, it's just a bonus if you did.
In this way it's comparable to Great Hall, a +1C, +1A with a little extra (1 VP) or Pearl Diver.

[yudantaiteki]

Man, if I had to remove cards from these 3 sets, it would be Witch, Mountebank and Goons...
But never Saboteur or Trade route !

100% agree on Goons. I have not played a single game with Goons that has been fun, even when I'm the one racking in huge amounts of points. I don't understand why Trade Route is bad/not fun. It's a trasher, gives +buy and near the end of the game can make amazing money for it's price.

I've never had that kind of bad game with Goons; I think it's pretty fun.

My choices for removal would be Governor and Ill-Gotten Gains, because of the brain-dead strategies that result from them.  Even if I win with IGG it feels dirty.  In 4+ player games I don't want to see Pirate Ship either; too often those games just turn into a luck race to who can get to 3-4 coins on their mat before all the money in everyone's decks is gone.

[bodybuilder]

there is someone who has enjoyed with saboteur? apparently is better off!

[WanderingWinder]

there is someone who has enjoyed with saboteur? apparently is better off!

I am not sure what you are trying to convey, but yeah, I have enjoyed saboteur

[LastFootnote]

I remember one 3-player game where I played Saboteur about 5 times each turn (thanks partially to King's Court). That was an amusing game, though I definitely wouldn't want it to happen too often.

[bodybuilder]

I understand that many people prefer not to have it in the game, and I would like instead of the positive opinions, because until now I have not read

[brokoli]

Man, I love Saboteur. It can sometimes change the whole dynamic of the game, just like Thief, by his destroying power. But Saboteur is more often useful than Thief. It's, IMO, a very skill card.

I don't know why people hate it so much, maybe it's just psychological : they don't want their card destroyed.

[KingZog3]

Man, I love Saboteur. It can sometimes change the whole dynamic of the game, just like Thief, by his destroying power. But Saboteur is more often useful than Thief. It's, IMO, a very skill card.

I don't know why people hate it so much, maybe it's just psychological : they don't want their card destroyed.

Thief shuts down decks that rely on only a few essential treasures. I think the main reason people hate Saboteur so much is that it's really just annoying (annoying is the key word). It also get's frustrating if your Province gets hit even though you had tons of $4-5 cards. It can also skip opponents coppers, curses, ruins and estates, which is good for them.

Addition: It's not really skill based. That's like saying Goons is skill based. It's not, you just need to build your deck around Saboteur and play it all the time, but that's just +Actions+Cards+X.

[bodybuilder]

but there is someone like me who have eliminated from the game?

[dondon151]

I lost a tournament game once because I was trying to whittle away at my opponents' decks with Thief and Saboteur and the TO decided to end the game prematurely due to time limit. Their decks were in no shape to end the game and I just needed another turn to exceed them in VP.

The thing with Saboteur is that they're incredibly demoralizing if you don't know how to deal with it. A game between decent players with Saboteurs destroying each others' decks is fun because you have to figure out how to get ahead of your opponent. A game where one player just reduces the opponent's deck to nothing but Coppers and Estates is not fun. It also takes a long time to play IRL, not only because it prolongs games, but because the action of revealing cards is time-consuming.

[eHalcyon]

Man, I love Saboteur. It can sometimes change the whole dynamic of the game, just like Thief, by his destroying power. But Saboteur is more often useful than Thief. It's, IMO, a very skill card.

I don't know why people hate it so much, maybe it's just psychological : they don't want their card destroyed.

Thief shuts down decks that rely on only a few essential treasures. I think the main reason people hate Saboteur so much is that it's really just annoying (annoying is the key word). It also get's frustrating if your Province gets hit even though you had tons of $4-5 cards. It can also skip opponents coppers, curses, ruins and estates, which is good for them.

Addition: It's not really skill based. That's like saying Goons is skill based. It's not, you just need to build your deck around Saboteur and play it all the time, but that's just +Actions+Cards+X.

I have to disagree.  Saying "that's just +Actions+Cards+X" is not at all fair.  There is a lot of nuance in how to set up an engine geared around spamming a card, whether that is Saboteur or Goons or anything else. 

Goons DOES take skill.  How do you set up your megaturn to maximize points?  Can you do it and end the game immediately by piling out?  If not, should you pull the trigger anyway -- will you have enough points that you can end the game in the next few turns without risking your opponent catching up and overtaking your point lead?  I'm not saying that there isn't any luck (e.g. being first to play Goons gives you an advantage in that handsize reduction makes it harder for an opponent to catch up, especially if they didn't manage to get a Goons of their own yet).  But there is definitely skill involved.

Likewise for Saboteur.  Aside from crafting the engine, you also have to know WHEN it is even viable.  Can you prevent the opponent from ending the game with a lead?  As you whittle down their deck, is there something useful you can do to score points of your own?  Is Saboteur too slow for this kingdom?  It takes skill to answer these questions.



As for why people tend to hate Saboteur -- there is definitely psychology to it, as others have already pointed out.  It's also a lot worse in games with 3+ players, which seem to be more common IRL from what I've seen.  In one of the first games of Dominion I ever played, my friends and I decided to end the game and remove Saboteur from future games.  It was a 4 player game and one player opened with Sab.  Since it was early, his first play of Sab destroyed our opening buys.  It got worse because of group think... pretty soon there were at least 2 Sab plays every round, not all played by the same player (and not even considering Throne Room, which was on the board).  Our decks just would not improve and it felt like the game was not progressing at all.

Now that I know better, I imagine that we would have gotten out of the rut eventually.  Decks will still get bigger which means Sab will be played less often.  But still, that first game felt terrible when four players were all playing it turn after turn.



But again, that was when we were first learning the game.  Now, I don't think any card is worth removing permanently.  Even cards that appear to be entirely useless can shine in the right kingdom.  It's worth leaving them in for those rare scenarios where you use the "worthless" card effectively and blow the minds of your friends.

[Watno]

Also, if Goons, a Village and draw are on the board, it's a pretty safe guess that Goons will be part of the winning strategy.
If Saboteur, Village and draw are on the board, it's not quite as easy.

[GigaKnight]

As for why people tend to hate Saboteur -- there is definitely psychology to it, as others have already pointed out.  It's also a lot worse in games with 3+ players, which seem to be more common IRL from what I've seen.  In one of the first games of Dominion I ever played, my friends and I decided to end the game and remove Saboteur from future games.  It was a 4 player game and one player opened with Sab.  Since it was early, his first play of Sab destroyed our opening buys.  It got worse because of group think... pretty soon there were at least 2 Sab plays every round, not all played by the same player (and not even considering Throne Room, which was on the board).  Our decks just would not improve and it felt like the game was not progressing at all.

Now that I know better, I imagine that we would have gotten out of the rut eventually.  Decks will still get bigger which means Sab will be played less often.  But still, that first game felt terrible when four players were all playing it turn after turn.



But again, that was when we were first learning the game.  Now, I don't think any card is worth removing permanently.  Even cards that appear to be entirely useless can shine in the right kingdom.  It's worth leaving them in for those rare scenarios where you use the "worthless" card effectively and blow the minds of your friends.

I had a very similar first experience with Saboteur.  Eventually people just bought Estates until piles ran out.  After I got more experience, my distaste for this card hasn't faded and that's probably just due to my preferences.  But the things I hate about Saboteur include:

• Extremely high variance. This is not unique to Saboteur, of course.
• Sloooows the game down. There's a lot of opportunity cost to buying and playing the card, after which it just hurts everybody else.
• Because it has a permanent effect on the value (not just power) of your deck, it typically just fights against ending the game. Cursers (the strongest attacks) at least empty a pile and then run out of steam.
• Does not scale well.  If you already don't like this card with 2 players, you'll hate it with 4.
• It's not even that good! As I mentioned, lots of opportunity cost, it's usually a mistake, and it's got all these other negative qualities.

The best thing I can say for it is that it adds "variety".  But I'm of the opinion that not all variety is good variety and I put Saboteur in my (very small) list of duds, even years later.

[KingZog3]

Man, I love Saboteur. It can sometimes change the whole dynamic of the game, just like Thief, by his destroying power. But Saboteur is more often useful than Thief. It's, IMO, a very skill card.

I don't know why people hate it so much, maybe it's just psychological : they don't want their card destroyed.

Thief shuts down decks that rely on only a few essential treasures. I think the main reason people hate Saboteur so much is that it's really just annoying (annoying is the key word). It also get's frustrating if your Province gets hit even though you had tons of $4-5 cards. It can also skip opponents coppers, curses, ruins and estates, which is good for them.

Addition: It's not really skill based. That's like saying Goons is skill based. It's not, you just need to build your deck around Saboteur and play it all the time, but that's just +Actions+Cards+X.

I have to disagree.  Saying "that's just +Actions+Cards+X" is not at all fair.  There is a lot of nuance in how to set up an engine geared around spamming a card, whether that is Saboteur or Goons or anything else. 

Goons DOES take skill.  How do you set up your megaturn to maximize points?  Can you do it and end the game immediately by piling out?  If not, should you pull the trigger anyway -- will you have enough points that you can end the game in the next few turns without risking your opponent catching up and overtaking your point lead?  I'm not saying that there isn't any luck (e.g. being first to play Goons gives you an advantage in that handsize reduction makes it harder for an opponent to catch up, especially if they didn't manage to get a Goons of their own yet).  But there is definitely skill involved.

Likewise for Saboteur.  Aside from crafting the engine, you also have to know WHEN it is even viable.  Can you prevent the opponent from ending the game with a lead?  As you whittle down their deck, is there something useful you can do to score points of your own?  Is Saboteur too slow for this kingdom?  It takes skill to answer these questions.

I take it back, there is skill involved, but I find, personally, that these cards are too luck based. Hitting an essential card early with Saboteur can ruin an opponent, but it's not a card I take out in my games. Getting a Goons early while you're still setting up an engine isn't skill. Those VP will help tremendously, plus the buy and attack part. Goons IS a card I take out in my games, although I have a feud with Goons. It's my archenemy so you probably can't take what I say about it completely at face value.

[Kirian]

Man, I love Saboteur. It can sometimes change the whole dynamic of the game, just like Thief, by his destroying power. But Saboteur is more often useful than Thief. It's, IMO, a very skill card.

Addition: It's not really skill based. That's like saying Goons is skill based. It's not, you just need to build your deck around Saboteur and play it all the time, but that's just +Actions+Cards+X.

I think a "skill" card does not necessarily have to be entirely skill-based while being played.  A major skill with Saboteur is knowing when to use it (rarely) and when not to.  But those times when it's great, it can be really, really great.

[Beyond Awesome]

To some extent every card is a skill card, some more than others. The true skill is really recognizing how all the cards in a kingdom either synergize together or don't synergize.

[Jimmmmm]

I think a lot of the skill of attack cards lies on the side of the person being attacked rather the one doing the attacking. Yes there's skill in deciding when to use Saboteur and when not to use it, but I'd say there's more skill in defending against a well-used Saboteur. Take Witch (and other Cursers) as another example. It doesn't take that much skill to use Witch. If it's there and there's no reason not to get one, you get one, maybe two, and then you play them as often as possible. Yes, there's skill in trying to use your other cards along with your Witch/es to win the Curse split, but a large part of the skill comes in figuring out the best way to deal with a deck that's being slowed down by Curses.

[LastFootnote]

Also, if Goons is , a Village and draw are on the board, it's a pretty safe guess that Goons will be part of the winning strategy.

Fixed that for you.

[shMerker]

This thread's title becomes more inaccurate as it goes on.

[sudgy]

This Any thread's title becomes more inaccurate as it goes on.

FTFY

[Titandrake]

This Any thread's title becomes more inaccurate as it goes on.

FTFY

But what if I made a thread with the title "This thread's title will become more inaccurate as it goes on"? Then your claim would imply that thread's title would become inaccurate, which would make that thread's title more accurate.

[Jimmmmm]

This Any thread's title becomes more inaccurate as it goes on.

FTFY

But what if I made a thread with the title "This thread's title will become more inaccurate as it goes on"? Then your claim would imply that thread's title would become inaccurate, which would make that thread's title more accurate.

What I am posting now is false.

[ftl]

You're lying.

[Jimmmmm]

You're right I always lie.

[Davio]

Re: Goons or any other high variance card

Those cards are fun when you're on the winning end of things, hitting that t3 Goons, but they're absolutely horrible on the receiving end. This is because getting and playing those cards first directly influences the other player. Having a Goons played against you on a turn where you had 4 Coppers and 1 Silver for your own Goons is devastating. Imagine your opponent getting 3 Goons turns in before you can afford your own. Not only did he get (at least) 3 VP, he got +$2 every time (helping him to get better cards, probably more Goons) and hampered you. So the effect works two ways, it helps the attacker and hurts the defender. Most attacks work like this, but are less brutal. The +2 Cards on Witch are helpful but not fantastic. Saboteur and Sea Hag are examples of attacks that hurt the defender, but don't help the attacker directly.

But we have to be realistic, Dominion is a game in which a good start goes a long way anyway. If you get an early Gold, that will help you to get more Golds and Provinces, it's as simple as that. If you're forever stuck in $4 and $5 land, that sucks.

Goons is just the type of card that exercebates (is that the right word?) this asymmetry and runaway factor. It's even worse because the piles can deplete really slowly. You might see a Goons player buying out the Great Halls first, then the Pearl Divers and finally the Estates or something like that, while the guy who is being pummeled is scrambling Silvers to get his own Goons going, too late of course. I wonder what Goons would be like when it gives you Estates instead of VP tokens...

It's a powerful combination: +$2, +Buy, Militia-attack and +1 VP token for every buy

I have less quabble with Monument because if your opponent is one turn ahead in getting a Monument that's not so bad, your odds might switch from ~50% to 45%, with Goons it's more like: Whoever gets and uses it first switches from ~50% to 75% or even higher.

Of course there is skill involved in using a Goons engine correctly, but if you're going full Goons with some Village you can't really fuck it up, not so bad that you're letting the early advantage go away anyway.