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Author Topic: I need to remove some cards from my games  (Read 52333 times)

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Kirian

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2013, 07:58:15 pm »
+8

"I would like to eliminate the weakest 5 cards in the base set, of intrigue and prosperity. instead of arguing on my way to see the game, why not just tell me what are these 5 cards that I can do without it?"

If we told you to remove copper and estates you wouldn't get very far. I'm sorry you don't feel happy with our responses but, to Dominion fans, your request is a bit like asking your dentist which teeth are the least useful because you don't want to keep them all. Not many dentists would give you a straight answer.

Wisdom teeth.  Especially impacted ones.

Edge cases FTW!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2013, 08:06:38 pm »
0

There are lots of analogies I can make to the request, while at the same time complying with it - presumably he's not hurting anyone with this information, at most whoever he is playing with by imposing this on them, and in the scheme of things, this is just so small.

But analogies are fun, so hey, let's go:
It would be like asking which chess piece we could do without.
Or which set piece really adds nothing to football (would we really miss a goal kick? yes).
Which event should we remove from the decathlon?
Which letter of the alphabet should we get rid of (incidentally, at least in English, I actually think there are a few which are technically superfluous - different languages have more, others less)?



On a more serious note, to the OP: I am a little bit confused if you are just looking for weak cards. In this case, I don't understand your mentioning of the following cards: Gardens, Chapel, Monument, Bishop, and the obvious allusion to Goons. These cards are all strong, very often game-changing. What do you find weak about them?

bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2013, 08:14:51 pm »
0

I realize that you dominion enthusiasts are able to see the good in each card, because you have already found many strategies being able to create good combo, even with cards less useful.

my problem is that I want to delete cards prosperity that use the add-ins, and they are: trade route, bishop, monument and goons. then I would find myself with a set of 21 cards instead of 25.

then, given my obsession with things fair, I want to take at least 4 cards by the other set, then I joined the forum just to ask you veterans what might be these cards which I can not help it.

I'm probably wrong to say the weak cards, but I had to say the cards more unbalanced .. for example the chapel, is the only one that follows a strategy different from all the others, to discard the copper and victory points from 1 to take silver, and gold, and then use the usual strategy "big money" which is the most boring both for those who play for opponents.

I would rather based games more than anything else on the purchase of cards at the right time to just take money, which is why being neophyte, the first thing that came to mind was: if I remove the cards less useful then you also buy the cards more useful instead of buying only money!

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2013, 08:21:50 pm »
+2

I'm probably wrong to say the weak cards, but I had to say the cards more unbalanced .. for example the chapel, is the only one that follows a strategy different from all the others, to discard the copper and victory points from 1 to take silver, and gold, and then use the usual strategy "big money" which is the most boring both for those who play for opponents.!

This is actually the opposite of true. Chapel is actually a net negative on your deck if you follow it up with "big money". Chapel works best when working into an "engine", where you try and do things like drawing your deck, rapidly increasing buying power and buying multiple cards (ideally Provinces) per turn.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2013, 08:29:05 pm »
0

right now I'm playing online against AI, he took the chapel, 1 village and 6 card spy, he continues to discard all my cards and I can not play! this is what I want to avoid!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 08:35:07 pm by bodybuilder »
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Kirian

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2013, 08:34:51 pm »
+1

right now I'm playing online against AI, he took the chapel and village 1 and 6 cards spy, continues to scartarmi all my cards and I do not play! this is what I want to avoid!

You can usually assume the AI are idiots.  Especially with Spy.
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2013, 08:38:08 pm »
0

maybe it's an idiot, but it was boring to see him play only! I could not do anything! he played one card after the other and bought duchies.
I do not want this in my games
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heron

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2013, 08:38:47 pm »
0

That's more of an issue of the AI being stupid buying six spies. Just speed up the animation.

This is the latest list of players' least favorite cards, which may help you.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4054.0

If you wanted my advice for 5 cards to remove from base, I would pick Chancellor, Feast, Thief, Woodcutter, and Adventurer.
For people who dislike bodybuilder's request, let me rephrase it: If there were no way to acquire new dominion cards, and your house burned down, and five cards from each set were lost, which cards would you hope for them to be?

Also I believe scartarmi is supposed to be discard.
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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2013, 08:43:54 pm »
0

right now I'm playing online against AI, he took the chapel, 1 village and 6 card spy, he continues to discard all my cards and I can not play! this is what I want to avoid!

Spy only affects the top of your deck. You'll still have four other cards every hand, I don't see how this is really an issue?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2013, 08:58:08 pm »
0

the problem is that he discarded all my money and my hand of cards each turn was formed only by victory points and curses! and then every hand was always the same,  it was boring just to see him play .. if I was playing so my group would be bored
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jsh357

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2013, 09:05:19 pm »
0

the problem is that he discarded all my money and my hand of cards each turn was formed only by victory points and curses! and then every hand was always the same,  it was boring just to see him play .. if I was playing so my group would be bored


I hate to be that guy, but... man, you could have done the same thing to him.  Or gone with the multitude of strategies that can easily beat a Spy-heavy deck.  The beauty of this game is that there are situations where even a weak card like Spy can shine.
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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 09:06:25 pm »
0

Victory points AND curses? How did you get curses if all he had was Spies? On average, Spy doesn't affect your other four cards. If you keep drawing lots of curses and victory cards, you had a terrible deck, or terrible luck.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2013, 09:10:38 pm »
0

he had also witches ..

however this is not the problem .. the problem is the strategy implemented with the chapel, if a player discards everything and you create the deck is impossible to beat. I want my games are balanced and not one-way
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dondon151

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2013, 09:19:17 pm »
+1

If you pick a better strategy relative to everyone else, then you will be nearly impossible to beat regardless of the kingdom. You can trounce your opponents with 5 consecutive double-Province turns while hitting every single one of their hands with Militia (what I did once in a tournament game) or you can slowly build up that VP lead with a deck that is, on average, producing better hands every turn than your opponents'. In both cases, your opponents' chances might have been completely dashed as early as turn 5. It's not the fault of any single particular card.

This is the snowball "problem" of Dominion. I don't personally think that it's a problem, though.

In any case, I've thrown in my lot on what cards you should ignore the most often. I thought that I was helpful with my previous post, but maybe you missed it. Ignoring 5 cards per set is a bit much because there just really aren't that many terrible cards, and certain sets are worse than others. Like, I wouldn't really care if Chancellor, Feast, and Adventurer didn't exist, and some cards like Woodcutter and Thief are also generally ignorable in the main set. But, if it came to Prosperity, there is not one card in that set that I wouldn't play with on the basis of it being too weak. Maybe Royal Seal.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 09:20:41 pm by dondon151 »
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bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2013, 09:26:34 pm »
0

I do not like loan (why should I trash my treasure?) and the cards that use the add-ins. no longer seems dominion if there are extra components!
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michaeljb

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2013, 09:33:03 pm »
+2

I do not like loan (why should I trash my treasure?)

Because Copper is usually a bad card.
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Fuu

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2013, 09:36:00 pm »
0

...
I'm probably wrong to say the weak cards, but I had to say the cards more unbalanced .. for example the chapel, is the only one that follows a strategy different from all the others
...

To try and answer your question as best as possible, without resorting to 'it can't be done' or variants on 'it depends', I would say that if your aim is to not play with cards that are 'more unbalanced' and 'follow a different strategy', then I would select these ones:

Dominion:
Chapel
Gardens
(that's it - I can't bring myself to remove more than these two)

Intrigue:
Torturer
Minion
Maybe Steward, or Swindler?

Prosperity:
(you already selected Trade Route, Bishop, Goons and Monument)
King's Court
Mountebank
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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2013, 09:36:19 pm »
0

he had also witches ..

however this is not the problem .. the problem is the strategy implemented with the chapel, if a player discards everything and you create the deck is impossible to beat. I want my games are balanced and not one-way


If you can create an 'impossible to beat' deck, why didn't you do it?

Also, I can pretty much guarantee you that deck would be very beatable, even only knowing the cards you've named. Open Chapel/Silver. Buy Silvers while trashing Coppers and Estates, Grab a Witch or two ASAP and some Golds. Start buying Provinces soon after. Ignore Spies, they're too slow here. Most likely there's even something else useful you could add.

Disliking a card doesn't seem a good reason to exclude it. But ultimately it's your game. You can play it how you want (in person). And trust me, the extra component based things fit seamlessly into the game. They change the game, yes, but isn't that the whole purpose of an expansion to a board game?
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

bodybuilder

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2013, 09:41:35 pm »
0

I'm coming to the conclusion, I thought to eliminate these cards:
prosperity: loan,  bishop,  goons,  monument, trade route (loan do not like, because I do not want to use the other components)
intrigue: scout,  wishing well,  saboteur,  coppersmith,  great hall
base: chancellor,  chapel,  woodcutter,  thief,  cellar

what do you think about?
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dondon151

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2013, 10:14:25 pm »
+1

Some of those cards are rather strong and/or useful, and some are probably not as amazing as you think they are. I would highly encourage you to play with them instead of eliminating them.
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TWoos

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2013, 10:43:21 pm »
0

my request is pretty easy, I would like to eliminate the weakest 5 cards in the base set, of intrigue and prosperity. instead of arguing on my way to see the game, why not just tell me what are these 5 cards that I can do without it?

But that's not easy.  The strength of a card depends on which other cards it is played with.  Which is another way of saying, it depends on the kingdom.  But it also very much so depends on your personal playing style.  I'm willing to list the five cards I think I buy the least, though, if you really think it'll help.

Base: Chancellor, Spy, Thief, Cellar, Moat
Intrigue: Secret Chamber, Wishing Well, Coppersmith, Scout, Tribute
Prosperity: Counting House, Contraband, and you already removed the three victory chip cards


But the thing is, just looking at the ones I picked, you might say "Hey, Chancellor and Counting House?  Those go great together!", and that invalidates my choices.  Anyhow, I hope this helps you.
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Polk5440

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2013, 10:48:23 pm »
+1

if I remove the cards less useful then you also buy the cards more useful instead of buying only money!

You want to play "interesting kingdoms" that probably don't have big money as the dominant strategy?

Maybe onigame's Dominion Set Generator would be of interest to you?
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Iron Hunny

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2013, 11:18:38 pm »
+5

I honestly do not like the fact that you are looking to remove cards from a game that enhance different aspects of Dominion. There are several reasons why I think it's the wrong way to look at Dominion.

1) It takes a game/expansion DXV balanced and unbalances it.

Let's look at the cards you've suggested to eliminate from the Base set; the cards are chancellor, chapel, woodcutter, thief, and cellar. Already you've taken away one of the four cards in that set that provide +Buy, one of the five attack cards, a card that helps create strong engines (chapel), and a card that helps you not to choke on victory cards (cellar). Assuming a game with no moat on the board and with base set cards only, Witch becomes REALLY powerful now since your opponents cannot trash fast nor create an engine that won't easily choke on victory cards or curse cards (something that cellar helps with GREATLY). I could go Witch+Big Money and win every single time since I know that you can't hurt me because Thief will NEVER exist in any upcoming game and even if there's a Moat, I know I can break through eventually since you won't have a moat every time in your hand. Essentially, you create instability when you remove cards you "don't like" from a game.

2)Where will you stop?

Well now you see from my previous example that Witch+Big Money is essentially unstoppable due to the fact you've removed most cards that help counter Witch. So now you say "Well, let's just remove Witch then!". Now you think the game is "balanced and fun". However it's clearly the opposite; you just end up shifting the power.

Since curses cannot be handed out, Militia becomes another key card that can change the game. A couple more games go by and you find Militia annoying every time your opponent plays it because you can't build your engine while he's reducing your hand and throwing around massive combos. So now you've removed Militia. Bureaucrat then steps up to the plate for the next couple of games and you then decide to remove it too due to the massive amounts of victory cards in your hand. Then you might as well remove Moat because it serves no purpose now, four of the five attacks are gone. Spy is a weak attack and Moat doesn't do anything substantial against Spy.

Well....since spy sucks, let's just get rid of it too. More games go by and you notice that someone wins a lot because he's just buying as many cards as possible with tons of Markets and Festivals and then buying the Gardens to really have a high score. You remove Markets (since it replaces itself) and Gardens (so no one can just buy tons of cards and win) as a result. Now look at your Base set.

Out of the 26 cards you've started with, you have removed 12 and are now down to 14 cards with no interactivity between them (no attack cards are left). It's essentially the same game every time (something the Base set already suffers from) since there isn't enough variation between the cards to change the game at all. You've essentially neutered the game because one strong strategy emerges every time and have created a game that doesn't push any creativity or improvisation. This effect gets exasperated more as you add more expansions since you'll get connections between them that are really deadly. For example, Goons may be gone, but you can still do the famous Kings Court + Goons + Masquerade Pin with Militia substituting Goons (no victory tokens on the side, just the pleasure of watching the world burn). Might as well remove those cards as well if you dislike that combo. This point essentially goes back to point one and just throws off the balance, but once you've taken enough cards away and you've finally achieved a perfect balance, the game is below average at best and nowhere as good as it used to be.

3)Dominion is a learning experience.

I do not like loan (why should I trash my treasure?) and the cards that use the add-ins. no longer seems dominion if there are extra components!

This is what makes Dominion special; the fact that you learn as you play more games. I thought chapel sucked when I first started, I mean, why would you want to trash your precious money? It's CRAZY!

Then I started seeing people beat me because they got all the curses, coppers, and estates out of their deck due to Chapel and created an engine that buys two provinces every turn. So I LEARNED that Chapel helps speed your deck up tremendously. Loan is the same way. NO ONE wants coppers, which is why loan is there. It doesn't take up actions, and if you are building a engine friendly deck that generates virtual coin, Loan just get's rid of those coppers that get in the way. You learn when you play Dominion. If someone keeps winning when they buy Chapel, don't remove it from the game! BUY CHAPEL THE NEXT TIME YOU PLAY!

Also, the extra components EXPAND (hahahaha) the game and cause you to think differently, causing you to LEARN different strategies. Intrigue adds more interactivity, something the base set lacks. Seaside adds duration cards which help you for two turns, something that didn't appear previously. Alchemy added a new treasure and cards to buy with it. Prosperity added MORE treasure and victory tokens, points that don't clutter your deck with cards that are essentially useless until the game ends. Cornucopia tells you that "It's okay if you buy one of everything because here are some cards that reward you if you do!". Hinterlands shows you the cool effects of buying/gaining, something that helps you out instead of having tons of buys but not many options. Dark Ages trashes (hahahaha *slaps knee*) the myth (for newbies) that "Trashing=Bad" and throws in cards that ENCOURAGE trashing. I would talk about Guilds if I knew more about it, but it will do the same thing!

Dominion forces you to learn. You don't learn when you remove cards you personally don't want to see.

That's why I disagree with you and encourage you to play with ALL the cards.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 12:00:48 am by Iron Hunny »
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ConMan

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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2013, 11:46:42 pm »
0

Yeah, if you want to get rid of Chapel and Loan because you don't like trashing cards, then you are missing a *huge* part of one of the main strategies - once the Coppers have bought things that are better than Copper (for a given definition of "better"), get rid of the Coppers. Not so good in Big Money, but in a lot of engines you want a thin, streamlined deck that can draw itself and produce a huge pile of money every turn, and all those starting cards slow that down an incredible amount.

Similarly, if you're being beaten by a bot that's only playing Spies and Witches, then what happens if you Chapel away all the Curses and Victory cards leaving you with just useful cards in the deck? No matter what he discards with the Spies, you are guaranteed to draw a good card next. Then, once you've built up a strong deck and gotten rid of any extra Curses the Witch passed, you can start buying Provinces and you should still have enough momentum that it won't matter when you draw one of them into your hand.
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Re: I need to remove some cards from my games
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2013, 02:15:34 am »
+1

for example the chapel, who takes plays in a completely different way,

The Chapel isn't that special. Getting rid of bad cards is a normal part of many Dominion games. The bad cards are your starting ten cards as well as any Curses and Ruins you get during the game. There are several cards to do this with, like Chapel, Remake, Steward, Upgrade, etc. Only in some games there are no good trashers, and you have to keep the bad cards all the game.

Chapel is especially good (for its price), but it's certainly not the only way to have good trashing. If you don't use good trashers it will be a game where it's more often is right to use mostly treasures, and also a game where you more often will be stuck with bad cards turn after turn, like you told us of a game where you repeatedly had just victory card and Curses on your hand, and that that wasn't fun.

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