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Author Topic: Conquest - the 6s  (Read 3290 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Conquest - the 6s
« on: October 08, 2011, 12:41:38 pm »
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This is the end of the road, the 5 6-cost cards in my conquest double-expansion. Here they are:

Knight
Action         6
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+$2
Discard two cards

So, the two-of-everything card needs a discard two to make it balanced, I think. But can you put the discard at the end? On a 6-cost, I think you can.

Sack
Action-Attack      6
Every other player reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal a victory card. They trash that card, which you then gain. The rest of the revealed cards are discarded.
Trash your hand.
Trash this card.

A steal-your-opponents' VP card is a very dangerous thing to try to make. But I think this is more likely underpowered than overpowered, as I've put an enormous restriction in, such that I think you almost never want to actually play it. Probably it's normally terrible, and occasionally broken, which makes this like the worst kind of card.

Emperor         
Victory         6
Worth 1 VP plus 1 VP for every 3 victory cards in your deck

Originally I had this as just 1 VP for every to Victory cards, no 1 VP baseline. But I realized that that would more or less just supersede provinces, so I weakened it a touch. Now I think it's interesting.

Viceroy
Action-Victory      6
The opponent to your left picks either action, treasure, or victory. Gain a card of the named type.
Worth 2 VP

Probably I could change this to: "The opponent to your left picks a type. Gain a card that doesn't have the named type" and it would be better and more interesting. 6 cost on a gainer is awfully high.

Blacksmith
Action         6
+1Buy
While Blacksmith is in play, every treasure card produces an additional $1 when it is played.

Finally we have this card, which compares to bank. It gives you one less coin (less for if you have multiple in play). It gives you the +buy, which is something bank really needs. It can be multiplied. It costs 1 less. And it's a terminal action. I think it's probably balanced and decently interesting, though maybe a touch weak.

Jack Rudd

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2011, 12:56:38 pm »
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There are all sorts of cards that would be nasty in combo with Sack. King's Court is perhaps the most painful.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2011, 01:51:52 pm »
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You're right. Of course KC is super nasty with lots of stuff, but probably even moreso here. This is no surprise.

biopower

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2011, 02:16:39 pm »
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You're right. Of course KC is super nasty with lots of stuff, but probably even moreso here. This is no surprise.

I feel like Sack should have the "Trash your hand and this card" clause first, and then add a "If you do," to the beginning of the effect, so that it becomes like Tactician and can't be KC'd. 

A KC'd Sack has the potential of creating a 60 point swing in Colony games, which is fairly silly. It's around as swingy as swindler; it hurts to lose three colonies to a sack, and then only get three estates back from your own. It's probably way too high-variance to be a good card.
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play2draw

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2011, 02:18:53 pm »
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Knight is stupidly awesome. In a game with some any kind of smithy (heck, even a string of moats might work), there's never a reason not to buy this card, and I'd buy this over gold every time. A festival/warehouse? Definitely! Perhaps it needs a Grand-Market-like buying restriction. (maybe something like "You may only buy this if the value of treasure cards played is at least equal to 6". That way you can't only use knights to buy more knights).

I would be tempted to put the trashing part at the beginning of Sack, and then include the clause "if you trashed any cards, then..." Interesting approach for a victory-card-stealing-card though. Sack would be well compared to Pirate Ship or Thief or Saboteur, in that there is a very obvious way to counter the card (not trashing estates, buying extra duchies, etc), so it's really not overpowered at all unless the opponents allow Sack to become overpowered. Besides, there aren't enough cards in Dominion that allow people to come-back-from-behind.

Emperor is okay, but I don't know if it's the sort of card one can really base a strategy around. Fairgrounds is a very fun card because it requires a completely different approach, rewarding those who focus on variety early. Emperor seems more like a card that I'd get when the Duchies run out than one that rewards an alternate strategy.

Viceroy seems okay as it is. As it's written, I'd only get it if there were solid actions on the board, but I think that it's somewhat balanced. The alternate text may be too strong in the early game (I'd definitely remove the 2VP with the alternate text).

Blacksmith seems like the "Adventurer" of the set, in that I'd only buy it on certain occasions (I think this is a good quality of the card, as I really like Adventurer). If you try and go BM/Blacksmith, it's probably worth no more than a gold most of the time, so the price is right.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:51:13 pm by play2draw »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 02:20:21 pm »
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To even consider it for 4-player, I think Sack has to be "Every other player reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal a victory card; they trash that card. \newline Gain a copy of one of the trashed cards..." (or some wording that allows you to only get one card, not 3). Gaining 3 victory cards seems excessive. Even then, it will lead to some really interesting games and some really terrible games. Hopefully there are more of the interesting ones...
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play2draw

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 04:43:52 pm »
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I was thinking... here's an idea to spice up the Emperor card:

Empire - Victory - $4

Worth 2 vp for every 3 victory cards in your deck.

When this card is gained, place an Emperor token on the Emperor pile. For each token on this card, add +$1 to the cost of cards in this pile.

---

In other words, the price of an Empire in hand does not increase, just those in the pile. Invest too early and you'll be buried in victory point cards. Invest too late and you'll have to pay a high price to catch up.
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rinkworks

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 03:16:56 pm »
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Catching up on commenting on these....

Quote
Knight
Action         6
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+$2
Discard two cards

I suspect this is substantially overpowered.  Essentially, this is Festival + 1 Buy + Warehouse-style cycling of 2 cards.  The second +Buy is less useful than first +Buy, so I can't see that alone as being worth an increase to $6.  However, the Warehousing is, I feel, much too strong to warrant a price increase of only $1, particularly since this effect is on a non-terminal, thereby allowing you to use any actions you draw.  This is a clear $7 minimum to me, and I suspect that actually it's an $8 or $9 card.

One way to look at it is that you'd basically always want it in preference to Gold.  It guarantees +$2, and it would be extraordinarily unlikely you couldn't gain at least another $1 with a 2-card cycle.  More often, you'll gain more than $1 from the cycle and very possibly improve the actions you can play afterwards.

In other words, it's preferable to a Gold even without considering the second +Action and the second +Buy that Knight also gives you.  This is why I'm afraid it would be overpowered even at $7.  I think this is probably an $8 or $9 card.

Two further comparisons are possibly very apt here.   Both of them are Grand Market.   Recall that in the Secret History of the Prosperity Cards, Grand Market began as "+1 Card, +1 Action, +$2" and cost $7.  It changed to the form it's in now not because the card wasn't balanced at that price but because playtesters complained that something called a Market should offer a +Buy.  As a result of that, it morphed into the card it is today.

Well, hey -- if +1 Card, +1 Action, +$2 is worth $7, then surely Knight is a more powerful card by comparison.  Knight doesn't get the 1-Card hand-size benefit, but in exchange it gets cycling AND an Action AND TWO extra Buys.  The cycling benefit is probably roughly equivalent to +1 Card, in terms of power level.  And the Action and the Buys, together, are probably roughly equivalent to +1 Card in terms of power level, though that's pushing it.  But with all of those benefits, Knight is clearly superior to this $7 version of Grand Market.  We're looking at $8 or $9.

Now compare to the final version of Grand Market.  Without the Copper restriction, it would have to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $7.5.   Again, this version has the 1-Card hand-size benefit that Knight doesn't have, but Knight compensates with cycling and an extra action and an extra buy.  As with the other version of Grand Market, this is WAY too much compensation for the lack of a single +Card.

Another way to look at it is that Grand Market, when you can get it, is almost always preferable to Gold.  There are times when it isn't, but usually it is.  However, not only is Knight practically ALWAYS preferable to Gold, it doesn't have the very important Copper restriction that Grand Market DOES have.  So basically you have a card that is more powerful than Grand Market AND easier to buy, but at the exact same price.

I like the idea of the card, but I just don't think it can work.  Maaaaybe if you put the discards first, it would be okay at $7.

Quote
Sack
Action-Attack      6
Every other player reveals cards from the top of their deck until they reveal a victory card. They trash that card, which you then gain. The rest of the revealed cards are discarded.
Trash your hand.
Trash this card.

Pretty impossible to predict how this will play on average.  But one problem is that there isn't an average.  Either it does nothing, because you can't bring yourself to trash your hand, or it's decisive, because trashing your hand is easy when it may very well mean certain victory.  In multiplayer, the VP shift could be astronomical.   In fact, unless you defend against it by sucking up Estates and Duchies, to minimize Sack's chances of hitting your Provinces and Colonies, it probably WILL be a huge and decisive VP shift.  And cluttering your hand up with Estates and Duchies, besides making the game kind of tedious, still might not work.

All in all, there are way too many points at which shuffle luck can determine the outcome of the game.

Quote
Emperor         
Victory         6
Worth 1 VP plus 1 VP for every 3 victory cards in your deck

Originally I had this as just 1 VP for every to Victory cards, no 1 VP baseline. But I realized that that would more or less just supersede provinces, so I weakened it a touch. Now I think it's interesting.

play2draw sums up my feelings here.  It's probably balanced, but I don't know that it changes the game enough to be interesting.   Fairgrounds admittedly sets the standard high for fun, game-changing VP cards, so Emperor isn't bad if it's not as interesting as that.  But is it as interesting as Duke?   Not sure.

One thing about the $6 price point is that it makes it hard to use in rush strategies.  But it might be tough to build a long-term strategy around, too, since you'd want a lot of green cards to maximize the value of your Emperors, and green-heavy decks don't necessarily do very well in the long term.

Quote
Viceroy
Action-Victory      6
The opponent to your left picks either action, treasure, or victory. Gain a card of the named type.
Worth 2 VP

Probably I could change this to: "The opponent to your left picks a type. Gain a card that doesn't have the named type" and it would be better and more interesting. 6 cost on a gainer is awfully high.[/b]

I like this idea, but I suspect it will need some tweaking.  You're right that $6 on a gainer is high, but you can basically guarantee a power card every time you use it.  Plus, it's got that 2 VP, which makes it useful anyhow.  This certainly feels more powerful than Harem and Nobles, which also offer 2 VP at the same price.

Some observations:

(1) Nobody will ever name Victory, because you can just pick up a Province or Colony with it.  I suppose your opponent might be okay with letting you snag a Province if you get a lucky $6 on turns 3-4 and play a Viceroy on the very next shuffle.  But even that would be quite a dubious move.  Yet even in this case, the player has an out, because if it's truly too early for a Province, he can gain another Viceroy instead, putting him up another 2 VP while not burdening his deck with an otherwise useless card.

(2) You basically always get a power card, no matter what the kingdom.  If Platinum isn't available, there is always Gold.  And if you are to gain an Action card, you can always gain another Viceroy, even if everything else in the kingdom is junk.  But probably everything else *isn't* junk, so you will usually have better choices.

(3) Against a Viceroy player, therefore, what can you really do to limit his dominance?  If there are any action-based engines possible OR any power cards like Grand Market or King's Court, you're probably hosed no matter what type you name.  If there isn't, probably you name Action early and Treasure late, but that will still be potent.  And if Harem is on the table, you probably have no choice but to compete for Viceroys.

(4) So how do you play a Viceroy mirror match?  Maybe by naming Treasure, so the other player can't get more Viceroys?  But then you're enabling him to buy them outright, or, perhaps better yet, leap straight to Provinces via an accelerated Big Money strategy (since a Viceroy turn might easily net you two Golds, or a Gold and a Silver).

I like the gameplay possibilities this line of thinking suggests, but it does seem too potent.  Your alternate wording is probably much stronger still, despite weakening the player's ability to accrue Viceroys or other dual-type cards.   But probably what this card needs is to be put on some kind of leash.  All existing gainers have a cost cap except Jester, which instead limits your selection.  I don't think limiting by type is enough of a selection limitation, and I can't think of a good cost limitation that would both solve the problem AND keep the card interesting.   So it's a tough problem,  but I think the idea is interesting enough to invest the effort into.

Quote

Blacksmith
Action         6
+1Buy
While Blacksmith is in play, every treasure card produces an additional $1 when it is played.

A bit like Bank, but different enough that I think this could be fun.  Requiring an action in exchange for the +Buy seems like a good trade.

The effect of multiple Blacksmiths is tough to compare with multiple Banks.  Multiple Blacksmiths are harder to play, and while each Blacksmith will count every treasure card (not the case for multiple Banks), the fact that Blacksmith isn't a Treasure card means that having multiple Blacksmiths in hand may, in turn, mean fewer Treasure cards to earn from.

I think this is probably a balanced card and more interesting and distinct from Bank than it at first seems.  You might still have to go to $7, especially with the +Buy there, but it's a tough call.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 04:52:06 pm by rinkworks »
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tlloyd

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 03:44:24 pm »
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Re: Sack

I like the restrictions, but they seem likely to be inconsequential in some games and prohibitive in others. I doubt the card can be balanced.

For your consideration:

Revolutionary
Action - $5
"Each other player reveals cards from his deck until he reveals a victory card. He returns it to the supply, and gains any lower-cost victory card or curse, plus one estate."

Notice that early on all this does early on is dish out curses. Later it can turn colonies into provinces, nobles into duchies, etc., while diluting with estates instead of curses.
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AJD

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 03:57:02 pm »
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For your consideration:

Revolutionary
Action - $5
"Each other player reveals cards from his deck until he reveals a victory card. He returns it to the supply, and gains any lower-cost victory card or curse, plus one estate."

Notice that early on all this does early on is dish out curses. Later it can turn colonies into provinces, nobles into duchies, etc., while diluting with estates instead of curses.

I'm amused by the fact that on some boards there's the danger that using this late in the game could actually increase your opponent's score: turn a Harem into a Duchy and Estate for a 2VP profit, say. Not criticizing it; just noting an amusing interaction. (It's not dissimilar to the late-game strategy of taking an Estate in response to Saboteur.)
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tlloyd

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 04:15:16 pm »
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Yeah, I like that aspect and it is intentional. An earlier version let you gain "any two cheaper victory cards," or "two of any cheaper victory card," but two provinces for a colony or two duchies for a nobles seemed too good.
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Epoch

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 04:38:38 pm »
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Rinkworks is clearly right, Knight is brokenly, absurdly, awesomely good.  It is transparently better than a Grand Market and costs de facto less -- the +2 Actions it gives even mitigates its one downside, as if there's any card-gainer on the board (including Watchtower and Library), its downside is somewhere between "much less problematic" and "actually a net benefit."

Knight/Library or Watchtower would be cruel and unusual.  Knight/some kind of Smithy would be merely obnoxiously overpowered.  Knight/no +cards at all would be merely "overpowered."
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AJD

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 05:48:14 pm »
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Yeah, I like that aspect and it is intentional. An earlier version let you gain "any two cheaper victory cards," or "two of any cheaper victory card," but two provinces for a colony or two duchies for a nobles seemed too good.

(Would be awfully harsh against Vineyard, though)
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tlloyd

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Re: Conquest - the 6s
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 08:35:19 pm »
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Also very true. Not intentional, but I think unavoidable.
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