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Author Topic: Potions and Talisman  (Read 5031 times)

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bjfaber

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Potions and Talisman
« on: April 18, 2013, 09:19:44 am »
0

I had a question about the talisman and cards using potion for cost. The talisman says when you buy a cards costing up to $4, gain a copy of it, does this apply to cards that cost a potion as well?
Does a card costing $4+P look like the Potion >$0 so you do not gain a copy of it because it then costs >$4? also is there a difference for cards that cost $4+P vs $2+P or $3+P? Such that $0<potion<$1 so that any card below $4+P would gain a copy or is it such that the potion is a foreign currency that the talisman cannot duplicate and then would never allow for gaining a copy of a potion required card?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 09:26:31 am »
+44

Talisman cannot be used to gain a second copy of a card with Potion in its cost. A bunch of people will post after this saying the same thing, but with a lengthy confusing explanation.
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DStu

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 09:41:57 am »
+2

Both "dimensions" Coins and Potions are compared individually, so if you have "costs at most C coins and P Potions", that means that both the coins are at most C AND the Potions are at most P.

If it's "less than", it's like "at most", only that at least one of the dimension has to be smaller.

If Potions (or Coins) are not mentioned, they are meant as 0.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 12:31:05 pm »
+6

Both "dimensions" Coins and Potions are compared individually, so if you have "costs at most C coins and P Potions", that means that both the coins are at most C AND the Potions are at most P.

If it's "less than", it's like "at most", only that at least one of the dimension has to be smaller.

If Potions (or Coins) are not mentioned, they are meant as 0.

Talisman cannot be used to gain a second copy of a card with Potion in its cost. A bunch of people will post after this saying the same thing, but with a lengthy confusing explanation.

(Not picking on Dstu, but MQ definitely called this one)
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Kirian

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 03:05:54 pm »
+7

Think of Coins and Potions as each representing an infinite simple group of order 1, Z/nZ.  The cost of a given card is the three-product of one member of each of these groups, which is therefore a member of the fourth-order complex group Z/nZ/iN.  Talisman, by definition, can only gain a card in the order Z/nZ (essentially, "a card costing $4 or less" implies "a card of order four or less in a non-complex Abelian symmetric group.")  It's easier to remember to use a Hamiltonian ring product to harmonize the two group orders for each potion card, and then determine whether the ring product is less than or greater than order four.

----

Some or all of that paragraph may be completely fabricated and have no real connection to actual math.
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DStu

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 03:08:28 pm »
0

Both "dimensions" Coins and Potions are compared individually, so if you have "costs at most C coins and P Potions", that means that both the coins are at most C AND the Potions are at most P.

If it's "less than", it's like "at most", only that at least one of the dimension has to be smaller.

If Potions (or Coins) are not mentioned, they are meant as 0.

Talisman cannot be used to gain a second copy of a card with Potion in its cost. A bunch of people will post after this saying the same thing, but with a lengthy confusing explanation.

(Not picking on Dstu, but MQ definitely called this one)

woot? this
Quote
also is there a difference for cards that cost $4+P vs $2+P or $3+P? Such that $0<potion<$1 so that any card below $4+P would gain a copy or is it such that the potion is a foreign currency that the talisman cannot duplicate and then would never allow for gaining a copy of a potion required card?
was not answered...
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florrat

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 03:50:36 pm »
+4

Think of Coins and Potions as each representing an infinite simple group of order 1, Z/nZ.  The cost of a given card is the three-product of one member of each of these groups, which is therefore a member of the fourth-order complex group Z/nZ/iN.  Talisman, by definition, can only gain a card in the order Z/nZ (essentially, "a card costing $4 or less" implies "a card of order four or less in a non-complex Abelian symmetric group.")  It's easier to remember to use a Hamiltonian ring product to harmonize the two group orders for each potion card, and then determine whether the ring product is less than or greater than order four.

Argh! It hurts my eyes!

Must... Resist... Urge... To correct you...

Must resist...

An infinite group of order 1, really?

Dammit... Failed.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 03:52:30 pm by florrat »
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Kirian

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 04:01:19 pm »
0

Argh! It hurts my eyes!

Must... Resist... Urge... To correct you...

Must resist...

An infinite group of order 1, really?

Dammit... Failed.

Some or all of that paragraph may be completely fabricated and have no real connection to actual math.

The correct choice would be "all."
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florrat

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 04:20:01 pm »
0

Therefore I tried to resist... But still... Somebody was wrong on the internet! Cannot ignore that!
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theory

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ConMan

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 07:26:31 pm »
0

Does a card costing $4+P look like the Potion >$0 so you do not gain a copy of it because it then costs >$4? also is there a difference for cards that cost $4+P vs $2+P or $3+P? Such that $0<potion<$1 so that any card below $4+P would gain a copy or is it such that the potion is a foreign currency that the talisman cannot duplicate and then would never allow for gaining a copy of a potion required card?
If a card costs $x+P, then it costs more than any card that costs between $0 and $x, and it costs more than any card that costs between P and $(x-1)+P. It costs less than any card that costs at least $(x+1) and a potion, or at least $x and at least 2 potions. It bears an undefined relationship with any card that costs at least $(x+1) but no potions.

So, for example, if you buy a Border Village ("When you gain this, gain a cheaper card.") you can't get anything that includes a potion cost because it doesn't cost less (i.e. isn't cheaper). But if you have a Haggler in play ("When you buy a card, gain a cheaper card.") and you buy a Possession, you can gain a Border Village (since $6 < $6+P) or a Scrying Pool ($2+P < $6+P). If you Expand a Possession, you gain a card costing up to $9+P, which means anything in the Supply except a Colony.

So yes, P > $0 when looking at costs, but there isn't a "value" of a Potion in terms of coins.
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zahlman

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 05:36:12 am »
+1

I had a question about the talisman and cards using potion for cost. The talisman says when you buy a cards costing up to $4, gain a copy of it, does this apply to cards that cost a potion as well?
Does a card costing $4+P look like the Potion >$0 so you do not gain a copy of it because it then costs >$4? also is there a difference for cards that cost $4+P vs $2+P or $3+P? Such that $0<potion<$1 so that any card below $4+P would gain a copy or is it such that the potion is a foreign currency that the talisman cannot duplicate and then would never allow for gaining a copy of a potion required card?

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.
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Jeebus

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 06:52:44 am »
+2

How about letting the actual Alchemy rules speak for themselves:

Quote
References to cards costing “up to” some cost only include [P] if [P] is in the given cost.

If a card only costs [P] (Vineyard, Transmute), the number of coins in that card's cost is 0.

Example: when a player uses University to Gain an action card costing up to $5, the player may not gain a card with [P] in the cost. A card costing $3+[P] does not cost $5 or less. It is just like Buying a card - if a player just has $5, he cannot buy a card with [P] in the cost. However if a player uses Remodel to trash a card costing $2+[P], he could gain a card costing $4+[P] or a card costing $4, as those are both "up to" $4+[P].

michaeljb

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 07:49:28 pm »
0

How about letting the actual Alchemy rules speak for themselves:

Sometimes when I see rules questions with no posted answers yet, I'm tempted to simply post "RTFM."
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ftl

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 07:58:42 pm »
0

"RTFM" is not useful. If you want to say that, take the time to quote the relevant section of the manual.
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joel88s

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 03:21:32 am »
+1

"RTFM" is not useful.

That's why he's merely tempted.
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soulnet

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 04:54:45 pm »
0

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.

Actually no, because "A card costing up to $4." may be a card not in the supply (like a Prize or a Spoils), which you cannot buy.
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Awaclus

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2013, 03:40:03 am »
0

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.

Actually no, because "A card costing up to $4." may be a card not in the supply (like a Prize or a Spoils), which you cannot buy.
But it can't be gained either (unless the card tells you to gain it from the Spoils pile or wherever it is).
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soulnet

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2013, 09:45:14 am »
0

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.

Actually no, because "A card costing up to $4." may be a card not in the supply (like a Prize or a Spoils), which you cannot buy.
But it can't be gained either (unless the card tells you to gain it from the Spoils pile or wherever it is).

That's irrelevant, neither "costing up to" nor the proposed definition mention gaining. The fact that costing up to is used in a "gain" context in most cards is independent from the remark.
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Jeebus

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 08:20:23 pm »
0

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.

Actually no, because "A card costing up to $4." may be a card not in the supply (like a Prize or a Spoils), which you cannot buy.

You're just introducing unnecessary complexity and confusion. What zahlman was saying was a way of explaining what the cost "up to $4" means. When you have $4 (and one Buy) in your Buy phase, you can buy a card from Supply costing up to $4. Of course if an instruction tells you to gain a card costing up to $4, then the group of cards from which you can gain is usually Supply but could be defined as something else by the instruction. For instance Trash, some revealed cards, a specific pile like Spoils, etc. But the cost as defined by "up to $4" works exactly the same way.

Awaclus

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2013, 05:52:57 am »
+1

"Costing up to $4" means the same thing as "could be bought if you had at least one Buy and exactly $4". If you have exactly $4, you cannot buy a Potion-cost card, no matter how many or few coins are in its cost, because you do not have a Potion. Similarly if you have exactly $1337.

Actually no, because "A card costing up to $4." may be a card not in the supply (like a Prize or a Spoils), which you cannot buy.
But it can't be gained either (unless the card tells you to gain it from the Spoils pile or wherever it is).

That's irrelevant, neither "costing up to" nor the proposed definition mention gaining. The fact that costing up to is used in a "gain" context in most cards is independent from the remark.
But it was used in a "gain" (Talisman) context here. It is a fine answer to the question the OP asked, even though it's theoretically possible to come up with a question to which it isn't a correct answer.
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soulnet

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Re: Potions and Talisman
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2013, 11:13:49 am »
0

You're just introducing unnecessary complexity and confusion.

Of course, that's the point, the first response was enough, all the other posts is just going into unnecesary details, as "predicted". This is just an extreme version of that.
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