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[Awaclus]

...and a pretty complicated one at that. I was randomly generating kingdoms just for fun, then this kingdom caught my attention.

$5:
Witch
Embassy
Ghost Ship

$4:
Wandering Minstrel
Bridge
Spice Merchant
Young Witch

$3:
Shanty Town (bane)
Masquerade

$2:
Fool's Gold
Herbalist

It is a kingdom that consists of mostly very powerful cards and a couple of slightly weaker cards, and the way they interact is interesting. On 5/2, it's pretty easy to buy Witch with $5 no matter what, but I feel like $2, $3 and $4 buys all depend on what the opponents do. There's no poll because I don't expect to get simple answers, and I'm more interested in discussion than poll results anyway.

[Davio]

Masq would be top priority for me.

Question to myself and others is: Is single or double Masq with 4/3 on itself enough reason to skip Witch on, say, your next shuffle? I would think Masq with Shanties might be good to clear some riffraff.

Double Masq + Fool's Gold might even be enough, but that seems too limited. I'm sure a Bridge, Shanty Town, Embassy and/or Ghost Ship can be added to inch out a couple more percentages.

[SCSN]

I don't like Witch here because of Masquerade. An early Ghost Ship might be nice, but it becomes less powerful later because of Wandering Minstrel, Shanty Town and Embassy.

The Embassy/Fool's Gold combo, on the other hand, seems very strong. However, you don't need the Embassy in the early game, so even with 5/2 I might open Bridge/FG (which I think is better here than SM/FG).

But then I also kinda want a Masquerade, and to make that work with a +buy you also want Shanty Towns or WM's, and that's way to slow to set up and defeats the purpose of the +buy (double FG). So I might even open Masquerade/FG, or go for Bridge/FG and buy a Masq only if my opponent buys one or goes for Witch.

[SCSN]

Question to myself and others is: Is single or double Masq with 4/3 on itself enough reason to skip Witch on, say, your next shuffle? I would think Masq with Shanties might be good to clear some riffraff.

Yes, cursers just suck when Masq is present. You're wasting your economy and terminals on giving him curses, while he uses his economy to buy productive cards and his terminals on returning/trashing the curses and further trimming his deck.

Double Masq + Fool's Gold might even be enough, but that seems too limited. I'm sure a Bridge, Shanty Town, Embassy and/or Ghost Ship can be added to inch out a couple more percentages.

I don't like Double Masq because with Embassy a super trim deck isn't really important and you increase the chance of drawing your Embassy dead.

[Davio]

So connecting Fool's Golds is either done with super-trimming a la double Masq or with a single Masq + Embassy.

But it might be more reactionary. Opening Embassy/FG might even work.

[DG]

Yes, cursers just suck when Masq is present. You're wasting your economy and terminals on giving him curses, while he uses his economy to buy productive cards and his terminals on returning/trashing the curses and further trimming his deck.

This isn't strictly true. Curses still expand the deck so a masquerade is only trashing cards to return to the deck to normal size. The masquerade also tends to bring the bottom level of the decks into equilibrium so ultimately no advantage is gained over the curser.

So a 5/2 opening is witch/fool's gold. 4/3 is probably going to depend on how you see the middle game and which terminals you want to squeeze into your deck.

[Davio]

But if you open 5/2 as second player behind 4/3 with Masq, you might get Embassy-FG or something, trying to outrace the other player to 5 Provinces.

[Wingnut]

On a 4/3 I think I might open Wandering Minstrel/Masq just for the extra cycling as I transition into Bridge. Since I will want the Minstrel at some point anyway, might as well get it early and see if it helps me cycle through to Masq an extra time.

That said I could be insane here or maybe its just I've been playing IRL 3 and 4 player with village idiot level players lately.

[Robz888]

On this board, I am opening Masquerade/Fool's Gold regardless of my opening split or my opponent's play.

If my opponent does not get Masq, I will then pick up a Curser, Young Witch or Witch, depending on how much money I have in hand.

[SCSN]

Yes, cursers just suck when Masq is present. You're wasting your economy and terminals on giving him curses, while he uses his economy to buy productive cards and his terminals on returning/trashing the curses and further trimming his deck.

This isn't strictly true. Curses still expand the deck so a masquerade is only trashing cards to return to the deck to normal size. The masquerade also tends to bring the bottom level of the decks into equilibrium so ultimately no advantage is gained over the curser.

I'm not convinced. If you play a Witch and two turns later I Masq you the Curse in exchange for your Estate which I then trash, our decks are the same size but I have 3 Estates against your 2 Estates and 1 Curse. This is definitely an advantage over the curser, all the more so if you pass me a Copper and I can trash one of my own Estates ({6 Coppers, 3 Estates, 1 Curse} vs. {8 Coppers, 2 Estates}). The Masq doesn't bring the bottom level of the decks into equilibrium, it trashes the bottom of your deck while replacing it with the bottom of mine, which will ultimately improve both decks, but after a few turns to correct for the early cursing, mine will always be ahead of yours.

[DG]

Thinking about it a bit more, wandering minstrels with ghost ship and a masquerade will be the deck you want going into the endgame. That kicks a few opposing strategies into the long grass. Certainly not a trivial kingdom.

[Kirian]

On this board, I am opening Masquerade/Fool's Gold regardless of my opening split or my opponent's play.

If my opponent does not get Masq, I will then pick up a Curser, Young Witch or Witch, depending on how much money I have in hand.

WHy not Masq/Bridge on 3/4?  That's likely to get you 2 FG on your second shuffle and subsequent shuffles.  I'm assuming 2P here.

[WanderingWinder]

Yes, cursers just suck when Masq is present. You're wasting your economy and terminals on giving him curses, while he uses his economy to buy productive cards and his terminals on returning/trashing the curses and further trimming his deck.

This isn't strictly true. Curses still expand the deck so a masquerade is only trashing cards to return to the deck to normal size. The masquerade also tends to bring the bottom level of the decks into equilibrium so ultimately no advantage is gained over the curser.

I'm not convinced. If you play a Witch and two turns later I Masq you the Curse in exchange for your Estate which I then trash, our decks are the same size but I have 3 Estates against your 2 Estates and 1 Curse. This is definitely an advantage over the curser, all the more so if you pass me a Copper and I can trash one of my own Estates ({6 Coppers, 3 Estates, 1 Curse} vs. {8 Coppers, 2 Estates}). The Masq doesn't bring the bottom level of the decks into equilibrium, it trashes the bottom of your deck while replacing it with the bottom of mine, which will ultimately improve both decks, but after a few turns to correct for the early cursing, mine will always be ahead of yours.

The problem is that you generally can't just have the masquerade poof, line up with the curse, and on subsequent plays of masq, they are passing you that curse back. Masq does not, in-and-of-itself, obsolete cursers.

[eHalcyon]

Nobody mentioned Ghost Ship followed up with Masquerade?

[clb]

Thinking about it a bit more, wandering minstrels with ghost ship and a masquerade will be the deck you want going into the endgame. That kicks a few opposing strategies into the long grass. Certainly not a trivial kingdom.

Nobody mentioned Ghost Ship followed up with Masquerade?

Just DG and you!

[eHalcyon]

Thinking about it a bit more, wandering minstrels with ghost ship and a masquerade will be the deck you want going into the endgame. That kicks a few opposing strategies into the long grass. Certainly not a trivial kingdom.

Nobody mentioned Ghost Ship followed up with Masquerade?

Just DG and you!

Oops!

[Awaclus]

I played this kingdom against my mother.

I went first, opened Spice Merchant/Masquerade and went for a FG/Embassy engine+single Ghost Ship+single Witch deck. She mirrored my opening, ignored both Witches, got my Masquerade after I had finished trashing my Estates and went for FG/big money. I won 53/-4.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I'd go Masq+Spice into Fool's Golds, and if my opponent goes for an attack, counter with another Masq (vs Witch) or Shanty (vs YW/GS)