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[BaruMonkey]

Another feature request: A text list of the cards in the chosen set, that can be copy/pasted into Isotropic!

[Toskk]

Another feature request: A text list of the cards in the chosen set, that can be copy/pasted into Isotropic!

Hi BaruMonkey,

That should be very easy to implement. Oh.. how does Isotropic handle the bane card, though? Is there some extra syntax needed to artificially select a bane card?

[Deadlock39]

The Bane card is specified as *<card>.  e.g. Village, Young Witch, *Pawn

[Toskk]

The Bane card is specified as *<card>.  e.g. Village, Young Witch, *Pawn

Ok, that seems to work fine for Young Witch.. but I'm not sure it works right for Black Market and selecting the bane card for it. It gives a "Prohibited: x card; Bane: x card" in the Isotropic game log.. is that correct?

Edit: where x is the card with the * in front of it.

[Deadlock39]

Dougz chimed in on a thread here somewhere recently and said that the prohibited is automatically added in to make sure the Bane cannot be selected for the main Kingdom so it is guaranteed to still be around when the Bane is selected.  What you are seeing is expected.  If you select a Bane for a Young Witch that is not on the board, but is actually in the Black Market, you will have to generate games over and over until Young Witch is randomly selected to be in the Black Market because there is no way to control this.

[BaruMonkey]

I suppose that with the no-copper requirement on Grand Market, it's a little bit different than a direct upgrade of a Market.. do you find a lot of games with both where you'd really buy both, though?

I was just thinking that vanilla Market might be a good stepping stone towards getting Grand Markets, but I guess it doesn't really do so much better than silver. Disregard that.

Disregard that "Disregard that.". I was just reminded of this game :
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/13/game-20111213-014547-4d8690ef.html

[popsofctown]

I did not read this whole thread, but I would want to say that my opinion is that humans are going to be a better source of good kingdoms than computers (that are, conceded, made by humans).

Have people rate fully random kingdoms on a scale from 1 to 10.  Most every rule you can come up with can be broken.

Setting up a system where a third party sets up the kingdom rather than either player is a good idea.  It prevents metagaming.  I'd enjoy veto mode much much more if a rank 30 player swooped in and veto'ed a dominant Jack or an irrelevant Counting House or a Worker's Village making Peddler too much a no-brainer.  Instead, my opponent usually vetoes cards he doesn't like like Sea Hag or Possession, and I usually veto to accentuate or reduce first player advantage.

[BaruMonkey]

I did not read this whole thread, but I would want to say that my opinion is that humans are going to be a better source of good kingdoms than computers (that are, conceded, made by humans).

The way we use this tool at home:
- Set up the preferences how we like them (we tend to agree on that)
- Get a set of 10 cards
- Use that as a starting point (e.g., "Let's trade out that Black Market for a King's Court").

[BaruMonkey]

Any news on v1.1.4...?

[Toskk]

Sorry for the long delay in updating the card picker.. yes, v.1.1.4 is done, although a few requested features (e.g. sort by expansion and a few redundancy filter tweaks) aren't in yet. I did, however, finally place the card picker program online. Here is the address for the project:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/

New features include a 'include at least one card that gives +2 cards' option, a line of text at the bottom for Isotropic, and one or two changes to the redundancy filter list. As usual, I welcome feedback and suggestions on the program.. the site uses Wordpress, so comments can be directed there, too.

[Toskk]

Well, I've begun the process of updating the card picker program for Dark Ages.. I'll try to add the newly-revealed cards each day, if anyone is interested in using proxies of them in RL games. Currently, the program doesn't display any image for the Dark Ages cards.. the images themselves for current cards are all hosted by dominion.diehrstraights.com.. he doesn't have the new card images uploaded yet, and I'm a little hesitant to host them myself (as I haven't asked for permission for that). Anyway, the permanent home of the card picker program is still:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/

Oh.. if you do use the Dark Ages cards, you'll want to turn off the 'minimize the 5/2 vs. 4/3 split variation' checkbox.. that feature uses Councilroom.com data (which comes from Isotropic) to evaluate the strength of each opener, and of course there is no data for Dark Ages cards (and probably won't be).

[engineer]

Toskk, I've checked out your card picker, and it's quite nice.  Have you ever thought of adding a card tracker to it, for taking notes of card purchases and scores? I often use the point counter extension on Iso, and my f.riends and I want to take notes IRL because of the added strategy & learning.  (I'm familiar with javascript myself, so if you aren't interested in writing this, but you are willing to host it, I might be interested in implementing it for you.  I do have my own site, but I think it makes sense to put both tools in one place, if possible.)

[Toskk]

Toskk, I've checked out your card picker, and it's quite nice.  Have you ever thought of adding a card tracker to it, for taking notes of card purchases and scores? I often use the point counter extension on Iso, and my f.riends and I want to take notes IRL because of the added strategy & learning.  (I'm familiar with javascript myself, so if you aren't interested in writing this, but you are willing to host it, I might be interested in implementing it for you.  I do have my own site, but I think it makes sense to put both tools in one place, if possible.)

Hi Engineer,

Yes, I too like using point counters.. in my experience they lead to higher-quality and more competitive play in RL games, however I really haven't found a good easy-to-use system for tracking in RL games. Ideally, what would you like it to look like?

[engineer]

Yeah, I agree that usability is very important.  You don't want playing Dominion to feel like work.

I think the key here would be to make the tool require as few clicks as possible to use.  Clicks = work.  Also, because there are so many complicated interactions in dominion, we may need to track a lot of different types of information depending on the kingdom cards present, and it would be annoying for both the designer and the user if the functionality changed constantly.  Obviously, if we track every card that exists in each person's deck, then we have all the information that we need (ignoring VP tokens, which can be handled separately).

The easiest way to minimize clicks and maximize information would be to have a table: each player gets a column, and each card in the kingdom gets a row.  Note that this means at least 17 rows: at least 10 kingdom cards, the standard treasures, the standard VP cards, and curses.  (Certain cases, like young witch, potion, or tournament, would add rows.)  In each cell of the table, in nice big bold font, is the quantity of card X in player Y's deck.  Next to the number are two buttons, "+" and "-". 

The layout described would look a bit scary at first blush, but the use case is very simple: I buy a card, that's a single click.  I trash a card, that's one click.  I remodel a card, two clicks.  I play a witch in a 4 player game, that's 3 clicks.  (Three is already a high number -- for crazy attacks like mountebank, perhaps we consider having a dedicated button.)  At the top of each column, we can compute the total VP in the deck at the moment, which I think is the information that we're really after.  It would also be handy to have a turn counter, which is as simple as a single button with a number next to it. 

Obviously, some minimal setup would be required: you'd have to enter the number of people playing, and the cards you're using.  (Obviously, if you use the card picker on the site, then the information would be fed directly to the card tracker.)  I don't think the tool would do any checking for you, because "are you sure" buttons just add clicks (work) and complexity.  For people who want to use a tracker, I think the design described here would be the fastest way to accomplish the task with minimal complexity.

[Gamer_2k4]

My friends and I love this picker, so thanks a bunch for working on it.  However, I liked having the HTML file available, so I could use it on a computer without an internet connection.  Is it still possible to get the file itself?

[Toskk]

My friends and I love this picker, so thanks a bunch for working on it.  However, I liked having the HTML file available, so I could use it on a computer without an internet connection.  Is it still possible to get the file itself?

Hi Gamer2k4,

Certainly, I'll attach v1.1.5 to this post. I should mention that for Dark Ages, only about 50% of the cards are available so far.. only the ones with images currently hosted at dominion.dierstraights.com are included (but of course those won't show up if you're using the card picker offline anyway). I'm glad you like the card picker, too. Any other features or tweaks you'd like to see?

Edit: I also wrote up a brief post about what's new in v1.1.5, if you're wanting to see. That can be found here:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker-v1-1-5/

[Toskk]

Well, it's been a long while since I posted, but I did want to mention that I did just update the Dominion Card Picker program to include Guilds. Image hosting is of course not available yet, but the mouseover tooltips for Guilds cards displays the text of each card. Also included, by request, is the option to deal out up to 16 Kingdom cards (for those who use non-blind veto methods). As always, the card picker program can be found here:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/

A more in-depth description of the changes in v1.1.7 can be found here, too:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker-v1-1-7/