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[AHoppy]

Here's the set we played:
Crossroads, Storeroom, Farming Village, Cutpurse, Throne Room, Young Witch, Spy, Golem, Stables, Harvest
Bane: Tunnel

Note: This was a 4-player game
With so many options to discard tunnel, it seemed like it would be reasonable to pass up young witch and snag some tunnels.  I was thinking of going for some Golem-Harvest kind of deck, but I opened potion-storeroom.  That was my first mistake, having realized I can only hit 3p with that.  I eventually grabbed some tunnels and golems and harvests, with some TR and a stables thrown in.  It kinda worked, but it was super slow, especially since spy skipped my Golem first time through.  Only one of us ended up going for YW, but he ended up winning.  So is Golem viable at all in this set or is YW the way to go? What do you think?

[dondon151]

First, Harvest and Golem are not as good as YW when it comes to Tunnel enablers. YW searches 6 cards, including the ones in your hand. Harvest searches 4 cards. Golem cannot reliably discard your Tunnels, either.

The strategy here is a bit more complex in a 4-player game. As you observed, when only one of the players goes for YW, he comes out on top because he gets the only curser, even if it does get blocked often. The piles also deplete faster, so the power of a potential engine isn't as high. In a 2-player game, I would probably open YW/Tunnel and try to transition into an engine. In a 4-player game, I would probably go straight for YW/Tunnel or Storeroom/Tunnel and rush for points.

[ftl]

Heh. With the Tunnel bane, might as well go YW/tunnel. I mean, YW is pretty good at discarding tunnels itself! Better than Harvest, though worse than storeroom. Possibly worse than Golem once it gets going, but getting golem going is hard. If you keep playing YW you'll give out at least a few curses with it, especially as people's decks start filling up with Golds. But maybe that's hindsight form you saying that the YW player won.

Golem is probably tough to get going. The extra step of needing the potion might take too long when there are *already* elite tunnel enablers out.

In 4p you really have to play it by ear a little, too. With some groupthink, piles can run out lightning-fast, and whoever won the tunnel split will win. Or if there isn't groupthink and people go for different strategies, the game can really drag on. In 4p, I'd also worry that committing to going Golem by getting the potion would leave you severely behind if the game turns into a rush, whereas going for the other enablers would leave you in good shape both for a short game or for a long one. 

[AHoppy]

I do have this problem with Dominion where I see the obvious strategy (YW/Tunnel) and i think "Hey, I bet others will do that, so I don't want to.  I want to try something original".  It often doesn't work, as noted here.  And the game actually did last long enough for me to build a pretty good Golem/Harvest/TR engine, being able to double province on the last trun.  However, that wasn't enough to win it.  And I understand that YW is an excellent tunnel enabler and the others aren't so much, but I wasn't actually looking for much gold, since the only handsize increaser here was stables.  so golds were actually getting in the way (especially discarding 3 to harvest once).  To me, it feels like in 2-player, both players would go YW-tunnel BM, and it would just feel like flipping a coin. 

Groupthink didn't really come into play here, the tunnels ran out fast, but after that, there was no danger of 3-piling.

Besides YW-tunnel, does anyone see any other possible path?

[SirPeebles]

As has been pointed out, Storeroom is pretty strong.  If you're looking to discard Tunnels, you can search through 8 cards at once and still have $4 to buy a card (Tunnel, Storeroom, Farming Village, or Crossroads probably).  Once you have lots of Gold, the Storeroom can help you gather them together and provides a +buy.

That's the best alternative to Young Witch that I can think of.

[DG]

Storeroom + tunnel has some chances. On your third, fourth, fifth turns you are probably just wanting to buy more tunnels. To my mind, storeroom + some tunnels is as good a deck as young witch +some tunnels by turn 5.

[AHoppy]

plus with tunnel being able to block young witch, you don't have to think about picking up a different bane card.  would it help at all to buy stables to help with getting larger hands or no?  I know it only increases your handsize by one card, but that's one more card for storeroom...

[dondon151]

I see an engine with Crossroads, Storeroom, FV, TR, Golem, and Stables. (With, of course, YW and Tunnel.)

[clb]

I see an engine with Crossroads, Storeroom, FV, TR, Golem, and Stables. (With, of course, YW and Tunnel.)

I would be concerned that by the time you set all that up, it will be pretty late in the game. Ahoppy did say it went long, but an engine, especially a complicated one, is a risk in a 4p game.

[dondon151]

Like I said in my previous post, in a 4-player game I would go YW/Tunnel + Storeroom and rush points.

[Robz888]

In a 4-player game, toss out any Golem notions. This thing is going to be over quickly.

I would buy so many Tunnels it's disgusting. I want the YW unless like 2 of the other 3 already got it. Then I just want Storeroom. And Tunnels. Tunnels Tunnels Tunnels.

[WanderingWinder]

In 4p, I want to win the tunnels so bad, I would think about opening tunnel/tunnel. And I might forego young witch for storeroom - everybody will be swimming in tunnels. Well, even so I am probably opening YW/Tunnel, then going tunnel tunnel tunnel tunnel. Well, probably tunnels run before then, after which you go into a couple storerooms. And probably dive for duchies fairly quickly as the piles are running out fast. Maybe I get a second YW at some point, but more likely not.
And actually, I don't really believe the engine in 2p either.

[AHoppy]

It's good to hear what other people would do in these situations, especially because all of the guys I play with (including myself) are rather mediocre players. 

[DG]

For these sort of four player games you can't entirely rely on what experienced players say. There are three other players here and if they all do something different, like buy a lot of cutpurses, then it's a different game again. You always need to watch the flow of the game.

[WanderingWinder]

For these sort of four player games you can't entirely rely on what experienced players say. There are three other players here and if they all do something different, like buy a lot of cutpurses, then it's a different game again. You always need to watch the flow of the game.

This.

Also, us 'experienced players' don't have that much experience playing with four players, generally.

[AHoppy]

True.  It is a completely different game with 4 people.  Still, insight is insight.  Oh, I also forgot to mention this was a shelters game.

[ftl]

Definitely grab tunnel on any $3 hand when you have Hovel in hand!

Or even a $4 hand, honestly.

[Robz888]

Yeah Tunnel/Tunnel would be far from crazy. Especially if you were player 4 and the first 3 people bought Young Witch.

[Morgrim7]

Yeah Tunnel/Tunnel would be far from crazy. Especially if you were player 4 and the first 3 people bought Young Witch.

I still think YW/Tunnel is probably better than this...

[Morgrim7]

Well, I dunno. Those tunnels do absolutely nothing except act as Moats, though! It does very little for your deck.

[WanderingWinder]

They also give you 2 VP, and later on you can discard them for gold. The reason you might do this is to get your defense up early AND very importantly win that tunnel split.