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Author Topic: Goko Redlines  (Read 16002 times)

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yudantaiteki

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2013, 11:08:32 am »
+1

For me the redline is automatch.  That's the only thing that's holding me back right now from buying the complete set of cards.

Unfortunately based on Goko's record I'm afraid that this "upcoming" matchmaking will start out buggy and nearly unusable, so it may be a while before they come up with something good enough that I'm willing to pay for.
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AdamH

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2013, 01:27:14 pm »
0

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

On iso, there was one day out of all of them that I cracked top 100 of the leaderboard. I was ranked 99th place and I went back down the very next day. I believe that was when I was at the top of my game (of course I'd love to exceed that and I work every day to do that).

On Goko, I have had absolutely no trouble getting and staying in the top 50 of the leaderboard, getting as high as 30th place or so.

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered. :)  Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

I consider myself to be close to Qvist in skill, but I think he's distinctly better than me, so I am offended.  :P
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Qvist

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 01:41:08 pm »
0

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered. :)  Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

I was confused reading this too. I mean I was first on the leaderboard for one game. But I don't think I belong there.

Cuzz

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 01:48:44 pm »
0

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

I gained like 100 points for tying 0-0 with you.
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Eevee

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2013, 02:34:26 pm »
0

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

I gained like 100 points for tying 0-0 with you.
I couldnt have had even 10 games at that point. The uncertainty factor works weird in goko?
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Watno

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2013, 02:40:37 pm »
0

I don't think the uncertainty of your opponent matters (or at least it shouldn't according to my intuitive understanding).
I think a huge part of the rating system being perceived as swingy is that you get a rating uog upfate after every game. I don't think the rating system is good anyway (being able to lose points when winning is enough for that)
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elahrairah13

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 02:43:02 pm »
0

My easily defined redline is automatch.
My less defined one is performance.

I found iso pretty addictive (in both good and bad ways).

I tried Goko a few times to see if I wanted to make the switch. But trying to find a game is kind of awful. I understand that if I bought the cards it would be easier, as I'd just be able to create a game and wait for someone to join. As it is, I don't want to do that because I don't want to play base only.
Last time I tried it I didn't even play one game. Just poked around for a few minutes and left.
I need to be able to say "hmm, let me play dominion" then be actually playing a game within a minute or two.

I suppose the deal is once automatch is built, I will give it a chance to see if it performs well (I have found it ok, but not particularly good)

Although honestly? It's probably better for me if goko never gets good enough to buy. I have enough trouble being productive as it is... I don't need my dominion addiction back.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 02:58:37 pm »
0

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SCSN

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 05:04:00 pm »
+2

Quote
But trying to find a game is kind of awful. I understand that if I bought the cards it would be easier, as I'd just be able to create a game and wait for someone to join.

You wish! Even if you put "rating 5000+" in the title of your game, >75% of those who sit down have a lower rating, some of whom start begging in chat to play (making you either feel bad about refusing or slightly annoyed for giving in), and an occasional clown makes it into a game to immediately sit back in whenever you kick him, which you can only escape by playing him (no way!) or leaving for another room.
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olneyce

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2013, 02:39:06 am »
+5

As much as I love Dominion, I just can't sit and look at that interface.  Just can't do it.

Maybe I'm being obstinate here, but it's pretty difficult to justify supporting a system that I consider to be wildly inferior to the version that one guy built in his spare time.
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qmech

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2013, 05:57:05 am »
0

As much as I love Dominion, I just can't sit and look at that interface.  Just can't do it.

Maybe I'm being obstinate here, but it's pretty difficult to justify supporting a system that I consider to be wildly inferior to the version that one guy built in his spare time.

Have you tried the log viewer?  Then you only have to look directly at the interface on your turn, and I find that bearable.
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Slow Dog

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2013, 08:06:45 am »
+3

I don't think the uncertainty of your opponent matters (or at least it shouldn't according to my intuitive understanding).
Your opponent's uncertainty matters in TrueSkill calculations. I just tried it here: http://atom.research.microsoft.com/trueskill/rankcalculator.aspx

It makes sense to me; if the system is unsure of your opponents ranking, how can it be sure how much to reward you?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2013, 01:30:11 pm »
0

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument, it does indeed make sense for both uncertanties to come in. If I think you're amazingly good, but am very unsure, I shouldn't give Jimmy as much credit for beating you as I would if I am SURE that you're amazingly good.

ashersky

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2013, 10:56:09 am »
0

Just noticed a "Quit Percentage" listed for each player.  Is this new?
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loppo

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2013, 11:07:16 am »
0

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?
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Slow Dog

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2013, 12:28:58 pm »
0

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument
My argument was merely some other rating system that models uncertainty used the opponent's uncertainty in its calculation of a player's rating, and pointed at something that proved it. I could also have pointed at Glicko.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:52 pm »
0

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument
My argument was merely some other rating system that models uncertainty used the opponent's uncertainty in its calculation of a player's rating, and pointed at something that proved it. I could also have pointed at Glicko.
I am not accusing you of doing this, only that it's a bad argument in general - and one I point out because people around here seem to like to try to make it. Whether you were saying that or not was irrelevant to my point.

ashersky

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2013, 04:11:27 pm »
+1

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?

There were different numbers for different people.  No one had a zero, in fact.  Even Eevee was a 1% quitter.  I think I saw an 8%.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2013, 04:14:36 pm »
0

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?

There were different numbers for different people.  No one had a zero, in fact.  Even Eevee was a 1% quitter.  I think I saw an 8%.

I've only ever seen 0% any time I checked.
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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2013, 04:47:47 pm »
+1

They're showing as positive now.  I'm not sure what it's measuring: I'm at 1% and have never quit, but far more than 1% of my games have hung completely.
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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2013, 04:50:27 pm »
0

Hopefully the "Quit %" only counts "dropped connections" and not pushing the Resign button. Although until they fix the fact that one player resigning ends a multi-player game, maybe they should track resignations as well.
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DG

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 05:21:00 pm »
+3

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.
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theory

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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2013, 05:36:42 pm »
+14

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.

A Goko bot sits forlornly in a forgotten Council Room.  In front of him is a Dominion game, without an opponent.  Cobwebs have gathered on him and the cards, but he dutifully continues to play, as he has for a thousand years.  "I play a Scheme.  I draw a Scheme.  I play a Scheme.  I play three Coppers.  I buy a Scheme.  I top-deck my two Schemes."  He reshuffles.  "I play a Scheme..."  As you approach, he looks up at you.  Quietly, he whispers, "Kill me."
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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 05:56:35 pm »
+1

sudo kill -9 serfbot
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Re: Goko Redlines
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 09:08:26 pm »
+3

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.

A Goko bot sits forlornly in a forgotten Council Room.  In front of him is a Dominion game, without an opponent.  Cobwebs have gathered on him and the cards, but he dutifully continues to play, as he has for a thousand years.  "I play a Scheme.  I draw a Scheme.  I play a Scheme.  I play three Coppers.  I buy a Scheme.  I top-deck my two Schemes."  He reshuffles.  "I play a Scheme..."  As you approach, he looks up at you.  Quietly, he whispers, "Kill me."

And I will answer, "No."
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