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[ashersky]

I'm a good Dominion player.  I'm not a great (like, Qvist and up), but I'm good enough.  I compare it to playing the guitar: I'm good enough to jam with my friends, but I'll never be as good as the best among us, and while I'll miss a note here and there, I'm no novice.

So, I want to keep playing.  I'm giving Goko the "free" chance, just playing without paying at this point.  It's okay.  I'm not appalled.  I, like many others, prefer What Was But May Now Not Be Named, but I could live with Goko, if...

And this post is about the "ifs".  I think we've had a few different threads discuss a few different ifs.  So first, here are mine:

I will purchase all the cards on Goko if the following things happen*:

1)  Auto-match is implemented which includes the ability to differentiate between casual and pro games and exclude opponents by level.  (Call this the "fixing the lobbies" problem.)
2)  Friends/Block lists are implemented to allow personal blacklisting of cheaters/rude players and to quickly find my regular opponents.
3)  A fair and transparent rating system is implemented that is (generally) accurate, unable to be gamed, and is accepted as adequate by the best Dominion players (WW, micq, Stef, etc. etc., but really WW).  I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.
4)  A high level of consumer confidence that Goko will survive and that the product I purchase will not just disappear.  A confidence level on par with Blizzard or Amazon is probably fair.

That said, remember that these are my own personal redlines.  These vary from person to person, I'm sure.

I am fairly certain that Goko can address the first three in time.  They're generally technical things.  My biggest worry is #4.  I've seen back of the napkin math on f.ds that does not make me confident Goko will survive the year, if not the quarter.  Because of the "buy" instead of "subscribe" payment plan they've adopted, having no confidence in the company is a big deterrent to paying for the product.

Look at it this way: when I played WoW, I had no problem paying the monthly subscription fee because 1) I could quit paying and quit playing and 2) I had a high level of confidence that WoW/Blizzard wouldn't just go under.  (As an aside: I had no problem paying my subscription fee to ElitistJerks to try to maximize my WoW knowledge, either; I'd be willing to pay a subscription fee to theory for "pro" access to f.ds.)  For different reasons, I'm okay with spending $ on Ticket to Ride on my iPad because, well, it's downloaded now.  I can just keep playing.  It's a product I bought and have now.

Goko offers neither of those buying experiences.  It's basically offering virtual stuff (like WoW) for a fixed cost (like an app/game/blue dog).  It's like a Merchant Ship that makes you roll a die to see if you get the $2 on your next turn.  It compares a lot to eBooks, I think.  I mean, I don't like eBooks because it's just microns on a screen, but I'm fairly confident in Amazon at this point to take that risk and keep buying Kindle eBooks.

So those are my redlines.  What are yours?  My guess is we can get a list of "applicable to almost all non-adopters" and "boutique concerns" fairly quickly.


* -- One caveat: I think if Goko releases an iOS version that will allow offline play versus bots and adventure mode with all cards I purchase (basically the Ticket to Ride model), I would buy all cards regardless of my redlines above.

[Eevee]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

[Titandrake]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

You earn points when you win and lose points when you lose. The problem is that the parameters for exactly how much you win/lose is dark magic, to the point where it's unclear how much effect Dominion luck can have on how your rating changes.

[eHalcyon]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

You earn points when you win and lose points when you lose. The problem is that the parameters for exactly how much you win/lose is dark magic, to the point where it's unclear how much effect Dominion luck can have on how your rating changes.

Wasn't there a thread about how you could lose points when you win, if the opponent's level was low enough compared to yours?  Or maybe that was only on a draw.

[blueblimp]

If I could pay $ to get all the promos (instead of the various contortions necessary currently), I'd be likely to drop cash on it. It's not even that I care about the promos that much--it's more a principle thing.

[Kirian]

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

[ashersky]

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

On your second point -- absolutely right that iso did not offer things I am asking of Goko.  But then again, iso didn't ask me to pay.  Iso was take it or leave it, and that was okay.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

Why are you so sure this is the case?

[shraeye]

tied up in that auto-match bit (which would be nice) is that having a single lobby (or maybe 2-3) is optimal, assuming that one had a way to sift through games in it.

Games currently being played should disappear, forming games should be searchable by a number of criteria: (within x of my rating, progames, casual games, unrated games, 2 player, 3 player, 4 player) with check boxes and such.  Letting people find what they're looking for faster is nice.

Friend's list would be great, then I can find my people even when they're in different lobby, or outside of my rating.  I like your ideas, mate.

[ashersky]

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

Why are you so sure this is the case?

Is councilroom still around?  Check my record against the Greats.

I mean, if I'm overestimating the number of the Top 500-1000 iso users that have transferred over, I guess I could be higher than I expect.  But I haven't even played enough games to get a rating anywhere close to accurate.

[ashersky]

Games currently being played should disappear

This, a million times.  This.

[Kirian]

Games currently being played should disappear

This, a million times.  This.

So much this.  I still don't know what they're thinking with that.

[Fabian]

Kirian,

Sure isotropic didn't have auto-match, and it did work pretty well. Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be "Goko needs a lobby system which doesn't seem like it's an actual joke" or something, since it definitely is possible to have a non-awful lobby system which doesn't include auto-match.

That said, when they do go ahead and remake the lobby system from scratch (right? this is happening right?), go ahead and throw in the auto-matching. It's not like it will hurt.

ETA: Of my own big goko complaints, the game log/etc thing used to be the biggest one. The Chrome extension solved that one pretty well (no thanks to Goko of course). Now, a lobby system that isn't the actual worst designed thing I have ever seen and a good rating system are probably the two things holding me back from at least playing occasionally. I'm pretty sure they're never getting any money from me though, the enjoyment I used to have for this game, they've already killed.

[timchen]

I think goko is stuck with a bad business model here.

For the experienced iso population the current free experience is bad due to the inability to automatch. Staying in the lobby hunting for games isn't very fun. This is designed to urge one to buy their product of course, but one is generically speaking even less likely to buy a product if their trial experience isn't that positive, especially if comparing to a (previously) free product. On the other hand, if they made it too easy for free users to find interesting games to play they even won't consider the buying option at all. So it's lose-lose either way.

For me, the problem is mainly #4. The price I think is pretty reasonable, even only for a year's subscription. The problem is then in the year I have to commit to playing it more which I am not sure whether I'd like to.

Maybe they can exercise a tournament mode (if they want to cater to the more competitive audience, anyway?) Pay to enter (say 5 gokoins or whatever, and paid users can get a discount) and winner gets say 80% of the total entry fee. In the tournament people can play with all the cards. This way people can pay for the games they want to play (and if I am good I don't need to pay!) and play as much or as little as they like.

[loppo]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

[ashersky]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

What iOS version released yesterday?  Nothing I can find...

[Titandrake]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

What iOS version released yesterday?  Nothing I can find...

You're parsing it wrong.

Yesterday I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS and it's really nice.

[qmech]

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

[Eevee]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

[ashersky]

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

If it isn't clear, I am defining "great" as Qvist and up.  I wasn't defining myself!

[Ozle]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

You beat Robz, I beat you. Therefore I am the best right?

[loppo]

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

thats nothing unusual. first of all you are an elite player, so you are where you belong.  Even on iso you could theoretically go from 0 to top of the leaderboard with a win streak of 31 games (there was a thread about it, but i can't find it. And all the guys cheating their way to the top all achieved that with a relatively low number of games.

I guess the secret lies in winning some games back to back. an uninterrupted winning streak pushes you to the top of the leaderboard in no time.

[Eevee]

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

thats nothing unusual. first of all you are an elite player, so you are where you belong.  Even on iso you could theoretically go from 0 to top of the leaderboard with a win streak of 31 games (there was a thread about it, but i can't find it. And all the guys cheating their way to the top all achieved that with a relatively low number of games.

I guess the secret lies in winning some games back to back. an uninterrupted winning streak pushes you to the top of the leaderboard in no time.

Well, I just lost two games and dropped to rank 78. What I was getting at is that the swings seem waaay too extreme. Or is it just that I don't have enough games played yet? Seems like the rank cares about your most recent games way more than it did on iso.

[Rabid]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

The "extra" points come from a reduction in uncertainty.
The rating shown is roughly equivalent to Iso Level.
But Goko also calculates (but doesn't show) "Skill" and "uncertainty"
Rating = Skill - Uncertainty

[Eevee]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

The "extra" points come from a reduction in certainty.
The rating shown is roughly equivalent to Iso Level.
But Goko also calculates (but doesn't show) "Skill" and "uncertainty"
Rating = Skill - Uncertainty

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!

[yudantaiteki]

For me the redline is automatch.  That's the only thing that's holding me back right now from buying the complete set of cards.

Unfortunately based on Goko's record I'm afraid that this "upcoming" matchmaking will start out buggy and nearly unusable, so it may be a while before they come up with something good enough that I'm willing to pay for.

[AdamH]

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

On iso, there was one day out of all of them that I cracked top 100 of the leaderboard. I was ranked 99th place and I went back down the very next day. I believe that was when I was at the top of my game (of course I'd love to exceed that and I work every day to do that).

On Goko, I have had absolutely no trouble getting and staying in the top 50 of the leaderboard, getting as high as 30th place or so.

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

I consider myself to be close to Qvist in skill, but I think he's distinctly better than me, so I am offended. 

[Qvist]

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

I was confused reading this too. I mean I was first on the leaderboard for one game. But I don't think I belong there.

[Cuzz]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

I gained like 100 points for tying 0-0 with you.

[Eevee]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

I gained like 100 points for tying 0-0 with you.

I couldnt have had even 10 games at that point. The uncertainty factor works weird in goko?

[Watno]

I don't think the uncertainty of your opponent matters (or at least it shouldn't according to my intuitive understanding).
I think a huge part of the rating system being perceived as swingy is that you get a rating uog upfate after every game. I don't think the rating system is good anyway (being able to lose points when winning is enough for that)

[elahrairah13]

My easily defined redline is automatch.
My less defined one is performance.

I found iso pretty addictive (in both good and bad ways).

I tried Goko a few times to see if I wanted to make the switch. But trying to find a game is kind of awful. I understand that if I bought the cards it would be easier, as I'd just be able to create a game and wait for someone to join. As it is, I don't want to do that because I don't want to play base only.
Last time I tried it I didn't even play one game. Just poked around for a few minutes and left.
I need to be able to say "hmm, let me play dominion" then be actually playing a game within a minute or two.

I suppose the deal is once automatch is built, I will give it a chance to see if it performs well (I have found it ok, but not particularly good)

Although honestly? It's probably better for me if goko never gets good enough to buy. I have enough trouble being productive as it is... I don't need my dominion addiction back.

[GendoIkari]

My 7 redlines have already been posted here:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7471.msg214160#msg214160

[SCSN]

But trying to find a game is kind of awful. I understand that if I bought the cards it would be easier, as I'd just be able to create a game and wait for someone to join.

You wish! Even if you put "rating 5000+" in the title of your game, >75% of those who sit down have a lower rating, some of whom start begging in chat to play (making you either feel bad about refusing or slightly annoyed for giving in), and an occasional clown makes it into a game to immediately sit back in whenever you kick him, which you can only escape by playing him (no way!) or leaving for another room.

[olneyce]

As much as I love Dominion, I just can't sit and look at that interface.  Just can't do it.

Maybe I'm being obstinate here, but it's pretty difficult to justify supporting a system that I consider to be wildly inferior to the version that one guy built in his spare time.

[qmech]

As much as I love Dominion, I just can't sit and look at that interface.  Just can't do it.

Maybe I'm being obstinate here, but it's pretty difficult to justify supporting a system that I consider to be wildly inferior to the version that one guy built in his spare time.

Have you tried the log viewer?  Then you only have to look directly at the interface on your turn, and I find that bearable.

[Slow Dog]

I don't think the uncertainty of your opponent matters (or at least it shouldn't according to my intuitive understanding).

Your opponent's uncertainty matters in TrueSkill calculations. I just tried it here: http://atom.research.microsoft.com/trueskill/rankcalculator.aspx

It makes sense to me; if the system is unsure of your opponents ranking, how can it be sure how much to reward you?

[WanderingWinder]

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument, it does indeed make sense for both uncertanties to come in. If I think you're amazingly good, but am very unsure, I shouldn't give Jimmy as much credit for beating you as I would if I am SURE that you're amazingly good.

[ashersky]

Just noticed a "Quit Percentage" listed for each player.  Is this new?

[loppo]

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?

[Slow Dog]

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument

My argument was merely some other rating system that models uncertainty used the opponent's uncertainty in its calculation of a player's rating, and pointed at something that proved it. I could also have pointed at Glicko.

[WanderingWinder]

While I think that "TrueSkill does it, ergo it's good" is a really terrible argument

My argument was merely some other rating system that models uncertainty used the opponent's uncertainty in its calculation of a player's rating, and pointed at something that proved it. I could also have pointed at Glicko.

I am not accusing you of doing this, only that it's a bad argument in general - and one I point out because people around here seem to like to try to make it. Whether you were saying that or not was irrelevant to my point.

[ashersky]

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?

There were different numbers for different people.  No one had a zero, in fact.  Even Eevee was a 1% quitter.  I think I saw an 8%.

[Drab Emordnilap]

no that quit percentage has been always there. It was just 0 for everybody, because it was not active. Have they started counting the quitters now?

There were different numbers for different people.  No one had a zero, in fact.  Even Eevee was a 1% quitter.  I think I saw an 8%.

I've only ever seen 0% any time I checked.

[qmech]

They're showing as positive now.  I'm not sure what it's measuring: I'm at 1% and have never quit, but far more than 1% of my games have hung completely.

[LastFootnote]

Hopefully the "Quit %" only counts "dropped connections" and not pushing the Resign button. Although until they fix the fact that one player resigning ends a multi-player game, maybe they should track resignations as well.

[DG]

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.

[theory]

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.

A Goko bot sits forlornly in a forgotten Council Room.  In front of him is a Dominion game, without an opponent.  Cobwebs have gathered on him and the cards, but he dutifully continues to play, as he has for a thousand years.  "I play a Scheme.  I draw a Scheme.  I play a Scheme.  I play three Coppers.  I buy a Scheme.  I top-deck my two Schemes."  He reshuffles.  "I play a Scheme..."  As you approach, he looks up at you.  Quietly, he whispers, "Kill me."

[ftl]

sudo kill -9 serfbot

[Kirian]

I don't think that anyone cares if you quit while playing bots either.

A Goko bot sits forlornly in a forgotten Council Room.  In front of him is a Dominion game, without an opponent.  Cobwebs have gathered on him and the cards, but he dutifully continues to play, as he has for a thousand years.  "I play a Scheme.  I draw a Scheme.  I play a Scheme.  I play three Coppers.  I buy a Scheme.  I top-deck my two Schemes."  He reshuffles.  "I play a Scheme..."  As you approach, he looks up at you.  Quietly, he whispers, "Kill me."

And I will answer, "No."

[yuma]

4)  A high level of consumer confidence that Goko will survive and that the product I purchase will not just disappear.  A confidence level on par with Blizzard or Amazon is probably fair.

Ultimately Goko's success will revolve on whether or not it is able to implement other games in the future and continue to do so as new games are published. Because eventually the money coming from Dominion is going to drop off, especially in the months after the expected wave comes for Guilds. Because of the way they have set up their payment model it isn't sustainable to expect to generate enough revenue from Dominion alone.

As I understand it they have other games lined up to be adapted--although I don't think any of them are quite as popular as Dominion.

So the question then becomes, will Goko be able to stay afloat long enough to implement games other than Dominion and become a premiere establishment for online games?

Add another question to that... If you were a game developer/publisher would you be seeking out Goko to publish your game? Or would you be looking at other options?

Because right now, after the disaster that has been and in many ways still is Goko Dominion, if I had a game that I wanted to put on the online market, Goko would not be my choice of doing so.

So honestly, I don't see myself buying into Goko until they successfully implement another game system w/o all of the bugs, controversy, false starts and general sense of apathy toward the fan's wants. If they can get another game off the ground successfully, then I might be willing to invest--yes I consider it an investment because I am putting money down with the expectation, but not guarantee, that I will be able to have a sufficient amount of fun for my money--my money in Goko. Until then... well I will just mooch.

[rspeer]

That's a really fascinating point about Guilds and what it means for Goko.

After Guilds, there are no more known events that will generate a surge of interest in Dominion, and there will be no more sets of cards for existing customers to pay for. After that wave, almost everyone who is inclined to pay money to Goko for Dominion will have already done so.

Maybe they'll successfully transition to another game. More likely they won't. But for those of us who actually want to play Dominion, what possible motivation would they have to make Goko Dominion not suck after Guilds? Even if they wanted to, how would they justify spending their investors' money on skilled developers, for a product without a known source of future revenue?

It's not even like Civilization 5, where they can keep working on the game until one day they say "hey look we fixed it all in the expansion", and loyal fans throw money at them a second or third time. The expansions already happened.

So I predict that whatever Goko Dominion looks like when Guilds is released is going to be its peak of quality. It will decline from there, possibly quickly.

[ashersky]

That's a really fascinating point about Guilds and what it means for Goko.

After Guilds, there are no more known events that will generate a surge of interest in Dominion, and there will be no more sets of cards for existing customers to pay for. After that wave, almost everyone who is inclined to pay money to Goko for Dominion will have already done so.

Maybe they'll successfully transition to another game. More likely they won't. But for those of us who actually want to play Dominion, what possible motivation would they have to make Goko Dominion not suck after Guilds? Even if they wanted to, how would they justify spending their investors' money on skilled developers, for a product without a known source of future revenue?

It's not even like Civilization 5, where they can keep working on the game until one day they say "hey look we fixed it all in the expansion", and loyal fans throw money at them a second or third time. The expansions already happened.

So I predict that whatever Goko Dominion looks like when Guilds is released is going to be its peak of quality. It will decline from there, possibly quickly.

That's very depressing.

[SCSN]

So I predict that whatever Goko Dominion looks like when Guilds is released is going to be its peak of quality. It will decline from there, possibly quickly.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see them go bankrupt, but I can't imagine any sort of gradual decline over a time span shorter than years. I mean, they aren't going to deliberately plant bugs that weren't there before, are they?

[pst]

But for those of us who actually want to play Dominion, what possible motivation would they have to make Goko Dominion not suck after Guilds? Even if they wanted to, how would they justify spending their investors' money on skilled developers, for a product without a known source of future revenue?

[...]

So I predict that whatever Goko Dominion looks like when Guilds is released is going to be its peak of quality. It will decline from there, possibly quickly.

It's certainly a possibility, but if they succeed in bringing in more games they do have motivation for doing general stuff better in a way that will also benefit their "old" games, like Dominion, for example improvements about game lobbies and matchups.

Also, if they succeed, there will be lots of players playing lots of different games there. In that case there might very well be future revenue in players who are there for some other game that get interested in trying more games there. "Hey, they have Dominion! I played that a few times years ago. That was fun -- I wanna try it again!" (Probably "old" games won't cost as much.)

[Davio]

I keep reading the topic title as "redli-ness", oh Goko is just too red!

[qmech]

I keep reading the topic title as "redli-ness", oh Goko is just too red!

Ruddy Goko.

[Watno]

I think they have RFTG in beta atm, and with them planning to become a platform for multiple games, they have an incentive to keep players from their previous games happy...

...assuming they don't go bankrupt.

[Davio]

I wouldn't be surprised if they mixed the lobbies for different games together.

[eHalcyon]

I wouldn't be surprised if they mixed the lobbies for different games together.

Surely not all of them.  I mean, have Outpost be for Dominion and Settlers, sure.  But Outpost II should of course be for RftG only.  It's obvious.

[SCSN]

This is the first time I hear of RFTG, is it worth playing? How does it compare to dominion?

[eHalcyon]

This is the first time I hear of RFTG, is it worth playing? How does it compare to dominion?

I haven't actually played it, but it's fairly popular.

[Watno]

I dont think they will mix the lobbies together, or at least theyre not planning to so atm.
The whole site layout suggests otherwise, and the other games theys currently have aren't mixed in either.

RFTG is a pretty good game, and since Goko is working with Keldon, who made quite a nice AI, along with an interface to play against it. So maybe they won't screw this one up.

[GendoIkari]

This is the first time I hear of RFTG, is it worth playing? How does it compare to dominion?

It's awesome. I'm terrible at it, but I still love it.

Hard to compare to Dominion. Maybe a cross between Puerto Rico and Dominion. If you've played San Juan; even more similar to that. I like that it goes really fast. It only has as much player interaction as a game of Dominion without any attacks.. that is to say, you still need to pay close attention to your opponent, but no direct interaction.

[ConMan]

Also, RFTG cards almost all use icons that make for an extremely streamlined, concise and comprehensible game ... once you've learned what they all mean. You will have to learn the difference between -1 and -1, and what it means for a blue rounded rectangle to have an arrow pointing to a hexagon with a 1 in it and another rounded rectangle with a 1 in it. And Keldon's AI is really quite good, in that I as a sucky player can only win about 1 in 10 games against it and people I know who know the game much better can bring that up to about 1 in 5, which presumably means that learning to beat it is a good way to learn how to play the game well, unlike playing against the Goko Dominion bots which teaches you to win against a Scheme rush.

[rspeer]

So I predict that whatever Goko Dominion looks like when Guilds is released is going to be its peak of quality. It will decline from there, possibly quickly.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see them go bankrupt, but I can't imagine any sort of gradual decline over a time span shorter than years. I mean, they aren't going to deliberately plant bugs that weren't there before, are they?

Here's a really belated reply.

Software rots on its own. It doesn't seem like it should be true, but this is what happens, especially when said software involves the Internet. People discover security holes in code you built on, for example, and then you have to update or actually change the code. Server components stop working. In a multiplayer game, people discover unfair exploits.

So, I'm not suggesting Goko would deliberately add bugs. I'm saying if they stop paying their developers, the bugs will show up, and I can't believe they're making enough revenue at this point to pay even a single competent developer who can maintain the game. (And they'd better be paying more than a single developer.)

RFTG might help them, but when people who are going to pay for Dominion have already done so, why would they spend any more time (and therefore money) on it?

I sort of hope I'm wrong. I've tried Goko with the extension, and it's not so bad. It's not good enough for me to pay for, but if they added a decent automatch and fixed a few bugs, maybe it would be. In that case I'd really hope they're not going bust in half a year. But I also hope this. And it's the middle ground, a slow fade into decrepitude, that would be worst for Dominion.