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[ashersky]

I'm a good Dominion player.  I'm not a great (like, Qvist and up), but I'm good enough.  I compare it to playing the guitar: I'm good enough to jam with my friends, but I'll never be as good as the best among us, and while I'll miss a note here and there, I'm no novice.

So, I want to keep playing.  I'm giving Goko the "free" chance, just playing without paying at this point.  It's okay.  I'm not appalled.  I, like many others, prefer What Was But May Now Not Be Named, but I could live with Goko, if...

And this post is about the "ifs".  I think we've had a few different threads discuss a few different ifs.  So first, here are mine:

I will purchase all the cards on Goko if the following things happen*:

1)  Auto-match is implemented which includes the ability to differentiate between casual and pro games and exclude opponents by level.  (Call this the "fixing the lobbies" problem.)
2)  Friends/Block lists are implemented to allow personal blacklisting of cheaters/rude players and to quickly find my regular opponents.
3)  A fair and transparent rating system is implemented that is (generally) accurate, unable to be gamed, and is accepted as adequate by the best Dominion players (WW, micq, Stef, etc. etc., but really WW).  I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.
4)  A high level of consumer confidence that Goko will survive and that the product I purchase will not just disappear.  A confidence level on par with Blizzard or Amazon is probably fair.

That said, remember that these are my own personal redlines.  These vary from person to person, I'm sure.

I am fairly certain that Goko can address the first three in time.  They're generally technical things.  My biggest worry is #4.  I've seen back of the napkin math on f.ds that does not make me confident Goko will survive the year, if not the quarter.  Because of the "buy" instead of "subscribe" payment plan they've adopted, having no confidence in the company is a big deterrent to paying for the product.

Look at it this way: when I played WoW, I had no problem paying the monthly subscription fee because 1) I could quit paying and quit playing and 2) I had a high level of confidence that WoW/Blizzard wouldn't just go under.  (As an aside: I had no problem paying my subscription fee to ElitistJerks to try to maximize my WoW knowledge, either; I'd be willing to pay a subscription fee to theory for "pro" access to f.ds.)  For different reasons, I'm okay with spending $ on Ticket to Ride on my iPad because, well, it's downloaded now.  I can just keep playing.  It's a product I bought and have now.

Goko offers neither of those buying experiences.  It's basically offering virtual stuff (like WoW) for a fixed cost (like an app/game/blue dog).  It's like a Merchant Ship that makes you roll a die to see if you get the $2 on your next turn.  It compares a lot to eBooks, I think.  I mean, I don't like eBooks because it's just microns on a screen, but I'm fairly confident in Amazon at this point to take that risk and keep buying Kindle eBooks.

So those are my redlines.  What are yours?  My guess is we can get a list of "applicable to almost all non-adopters" and "boutique concerns" fairly quickly.


* -- One caveat: I think if Goko releases an iOS version that will allow offline play versus bots and adventure mode with all cards I purchase (basically the Ticket to Ride model), I would buy all cards regardless of my redlines above.

[Eevee]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

[Titandrake]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

You earn points when you win and lose points when you lose. The problem is that the parameters for exactly how much you win/lose is dark magic, to the point where it's unclear how much effect Dominion luck can have on how your rating changes.

[eHalcyon]

Seriously, what is up with the goko ranking system? How does it work?

You earn points when you win and lose points when you lose. The problem is that the parameters for exactly how much you win/lose is dark magic, to the point where it's unclear how much effect Dominion luck can have on how your rating changes.

Wasn't there a thread about how you could lose points when you win, if the opponent's level was low enough compared to yours?  Or maybe that was only on a draw.

[blueblimp]

If I could pay $ to get all the promos (instead of the various contortions necessary currently), I'd be likely to drop cash on it. It's not even that I care about the promos that much--it's more a principle thing.

[Kirian]

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

[ashersky]

I should not be in the Top 100 pro players, and currently I am.

I have to take issue with this one; because of the large number of top players who have not migrated to Goko or don't play much on Goko, it's entirely reasonable for someone who was previously ranked in the top 500 to end up in the top 100.  I do agree that the system isn't as transparent as it really ought to be; it's not like publishing the equations somehow opens them up to more criticism than not publishing them.

That said, Goko crossed all of my red lines, which I enumerated nearly a year ago.  Your top three... you know, for the first 6 months or so that I was on Isotropic, it had none of those things either.  Having only one lobby was a step better, but there was no auto-match, or rankings.  There are still no friends/block lists.

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

On your second point -- absolutely right that iso did not offer things I am asking of Goko.  But then again, iso didn't ask me to pay.  Iso was take it or leave it, and that was okay.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

Why are you so sure this is the case?

[shraeye]

tied up in that auto-match bit (which would be nice) is that having a single lobby (or maybe 2-3) is optimal, assuming that one had a way to sift through games in it.

Games currently being played should disappear, forming games should be searchable by a number of criteria: (within x of my rating, progames, casual games, unrated games, 2 player, 3 player, 4 player) with check boxes and such.  Letting people find what they're looking for faster is nice.

Friend's list would be great, then I can find my people even when they're in different lobby, or outside of my rating.  I like your ideas, mate.

[ashersky]

Maybe I overstated how "good" I am.  At any rate, there must be 100 players (or 1000) who have migrated (or never played on iso) that are significantly better than me at this game.

Why are you so sure this is the case?

Is councilroom still around?  Check my record against the Greats.

I mean, if I'm overestimating the number of the Top 500-1000 iso users that have transferred over, I guess I could be higher than I expect.  But I haven't even played enough games to get a rating anywhere close to accurate.

[ashersky]

Games currently being played should disappear

This, a million times.  This.

[Kirian]

Games currently being played should disappear

This, a million times.  This.

So much this.  I still don't know what they're thinking with that.

[Fabian]

Kirian,

Sure isotropic didn't have auto-match, and it did work pretty well. Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would be "Goko needs a lobby system which doesn't seem like it's an actual joke" or something, since it definitely is possible to have a non-awful lobby system which doesn't include auto-match.

That said, when they do go ahead and remake the lobby system from scratch (right? this is happening right?), go ahead and throw in the auto-matching. It's not like it will hurt.

ETA: Of my own big goko complaints, the game log/etc thing used to be the biggest one. The Chrome extension solved that one pretty well (no thanks to Goko of course). Now, a lobby system that isn't the actual worst designed thing I have ever seen and a good rating system are probably the two things holding me back from at least playing occasionally. I'm pretty sure they're never getting any money from me though, the enjoyment I used to have for this game, they've already killed.

[timchen]

I think goko is stuck with a bad business model here.

For the experienced iso population the current free experience is bad due to the inability to automatch. Staying in the lobby hunting for games isn't very fun. This is designed to urge one to buy their product of course, but one is generically speaking even less likely to buy a product if their trial experience isn't that positive, especially if comparing to a (previously) free product. On the other hand, if they made it too easy for free users to find interesting games to play they even won't consider the buying option at all. So it's lose-lose either way.

For me, the problem is mainly #4. The price I think is pretty reasonable, even only for a year's subscription. The problem is then in the year I have to commit to playing it more which I am not sure whether I'd like to.

Maybe they can exercise a tournament mode (if they want to cater to the more competitive audience, anyway?) Pay to enter (say 5 gokoins or whatever, and paid users can get a discount) and winner gets say 80% of the total entry fee. In the tournament people can play with all the cards. This way people can pay for the games they want to play (and if I am good I don't need to pay!) and play as much or as little as they like.

[loppo]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

[ashersky]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

What iOS version released yesterday?  Nothing I can find...

[Titandrake]

here's a quote from getsatisfaction:

according to that matchmaking is just around the the corner, or around the corner behind this corner,....

----------------------------------------------
I'm happy that people see that things are getting better. I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS yesterday and it's really nice.... has match-making, too.

We're getting there..... just been a more circuitous path than we anticipated.

Thanks again,
John Q.

What iOS version released yesterday?  Nothing I can find...

You're parsing it wrong.

Yesterday I was playing with the version that will be released on iOS and it's really nice.

[qmech]

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

[Eevee]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

[ashersky]

great (like, Qvist and up)

I'm trying to work out who should be offended by this, and who flattered.   Qvist is perhaps the most interest case!

If it isn't clear, I am defining "great" as Qvist and up.  I wasn't defining myself!

[Ozle]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

You beat Robz, I beat you. Therefore I am the best right?

[loppo]

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

thats nothing unusual. first of all you are an elite player, so you are where you belong.  Even on iso you could theoretically go from 0 to top of the leaderboard with a win streak of 31 games (there was a thread about it, but i can't find it. And all the guys cheating their way to the top all achieved that with a relatively low number of games.

I guess the secret lies in winning some games back to back. an uninterrupted winning streak pushes you to the top of the leaderboard in no time.

[Eevee]

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

thats nothing unusual. first of all you are an elite player, so you are where you belong.  Even on iso you could theoretically go from 0 to top of the leaderboard with a win streak of 31 games (there was a thread about it, but i can't find it. And all the guys cheating their way to the top all achieved that with a relatively low number of games.

I guess the secret lies in winning some games back to back. an uninterrupted winning streak pushes you to the top of the leaderboard in no time.

Well, I just lost two games and dropped to rank 78. What I was getting at is that the swings seem waaay too extreme. Or is it just that I don't have enough games played yet? Seems like the rank cares about your most recent games way more than it did on iso.

[Rabid]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

The "extra" points come from a reduction in uncertainty.
The rating shown is roughly equivalent to Iso Level.
But Goko also calculates (but doesn't show) "Skill" and "uncertainty"
Rating = Skill - Uncertainty

[Eevee]

Well, I played a bunch of games with Robz (similar skill to mine). When I won, I got like +130 points and he lost like 35. So 95 points just appeared out of thin air? If we just played a lot of games and split them 50-50, we'd both gain a lot of rating?

On the other hand, I climbed to top 25 on the leaderboard in like 20 games, so I that doesn't really seem likely either. I don't get it.

The "extra" points come from a reduction in certainty.
The rating shown is roughly equivalent to Iso Level.
But Goko also calculates (but doesn't show) "Skill" and "uncertainty"
Rating = Skill - Uncertainty

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks!