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[AJD]

I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.

So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?

Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.

Throne Room locks in on the card, but if playing the card a second time requires it to be moved somewhere and it's not where it's supposed to be, lose-track becomes relevant. Lose-track comes up more often for Procession because Procession moves a card twice (from hand to play and from play to trash), so there are more opportunities for it to lose track.

[Jeebus]

I think TR is weird sometimes. Donald stressed that it "locks in" on the card it plays, which is one of the reasons why TR-Band of Misfits works the way it does. So you choose a card, it locks in, you play it, resolve it, and play the locked card again, no matter where it is.

So lose track should play no role for TR, as it locks in anyhow... But wait a minute... Procession loses track sometimes, doesn't it?

Honestly, i don't know what to make of it.

You're making the common mistake of mixing up what the lose-track rule actually means. It just means that a card can't be moved sometimes. It can still be played, no matter where it is. It's actually not that complicated if you think about it: For instance, Procession's last effect is to move the card from play to trash. Of course it fails to do that if the card isn't in play.

Throne Room locks in on the card, but if playing the card a second time requires it to be moved somewhere and it's not where it's supposed to be, lose-track becomes relevant.

Yes, but only moving the card will fail, nothing else. Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.

[Jeebus]

Theoretical card: "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it, trash it, then play it again." This would actually move the card back from trash to play. So the card would actually not end up in trash.

Hmm.  I suppose that this card would lose track of Fortress.  Also, would it lose track of a self trasher like Feast?  Feast will have moved itself, so Theoretical card can't trash it.  But then Theoretical card would fail to find Feast in the trash to replay, right?

I have no idea actually. We're kind of in uncharted territory here. I thought about the same question with Mining Village, since it would actually make a difference. It could mean you could trash MV twice. So, TC (Theoretical card) would play MV, and then MV would trash itself for +$2. So then TC couldn't trash it, since it expects it to be in play and it's not there. Now TC plays MV again, and so tries to move it to play. But where does TC expect it to be? Normally in trash, but it couldn't trash it so it hasn't moved it to trash. In play then? It depends on whether a move instruction like this depend on a previous move instruction's success or failure. If it doesn't then it always will try to do these three steps: Move from hand to play, move from play to trash, move from trash to play. In that case you could trash MV twice, I think? Or maybe TC couldn't find it in trash anyway because it didn't put it there itself?

I'm pretty sure that no card exists that presents this problem. It would need at least two movement instructions, where the first one fails because the card has moved, but the place it moved to is where it normally would have moved anyway. I expect that no such card will ever be made either.

[Warfreak2]

Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.

A card can't lose track of itself, but another card can lose track of it if that other card tries to move it from somewhere that it isn't. Throne Room doesn't contain any instructions about moving cards, so Throne Room itself can't lose track of anything; well, there's the implicit instruction to move the Action card from your hand to the play area, but I'm not aware of any card that could move it away from your hand in between you choosing it and Throne Room putting it in play.

Throne Room/Feast works because even though Feast can't move itself to the trash a second time (it's already there; it didn't lose track of itself, but it's already there), the "gain a card costing up to 5" part is not contingent on trashing, there's no "if you do". Throne Room/Band of Misfits can't select a different card each time, because once the Band of Misfits is in play, it is the other card - let's say it's a Feast. So Throne Room plays a Feast twice, not Band of Misfits twice. After playing it once, the Feast is trashed, now it's in the trash and it's a Band of Misfits again... never mind, Throne Room was playing Feast twice, so it plays Feast again.

[SirPeebles]

Even when you play a card (such as with Throne Room the second time) and as part of playing it try to move it to play, and that fails, you still do everything else, namely follow the instructions on the card.

A card can't lose track of itself,

Yes it can!  We've given multiple examples.

Unless you want to be pedantic and point out that cards do not lose track of cards, but rather effects lose track of cards.

[Davio]

Example: Feast

When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.

This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.

[SirPeebles]

Another classic example of a card losing track of itself:

Play Scheme and Hermit.  Buy nothing.  At the start of Clean-up, choose Hermit.  When you discard Hermit, two effects are triggered simultaneously and you can choose the order in which they are resolved:  Scheme wants to topdeck Hermit, and Hermit wants to trash itself.  If you resolve Scheme first, then you will topdeck Hermit, and then Hermit will have lost track of itself and be unable to move itself to the trash.  Either way you gain a Madman from the Madman pile.

[Jeebus]

To be precise I guess we can say that a card's effect can't lose track of the card by its own doing. A footnote needs to be added to clarify that when you play a card multiple times, each time is like a fresh daisy -- the card's effect is like a new effect. Hence Feast's effect doesn't remember that it was trashed the previous time you played it.

[KingZog3]

Example: Feast

When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.

This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.

You can only discard Market Square once anyway

[Drab Emordnilap]

Example: Feast

When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.

This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.

You can only discard Market Square once anyway

If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.

[SirPeebles]

Example: Feast

When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.

This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.

You can only discard Market Square once anyway

If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.

I tried to get an edge case like this to work, the Market Square that you draw by trashing the Cultist can react to that very trashing.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Example: Feast

When you TR a Feast, it tries to trash itself from play the second time. But it's already in the trash.
The trashing effect of Feast has lost track of Feast and can't move it to the trash again.

This doesn't matter for Feast itself, but it matters if you have Market Square, you can only gain 1 Gold.

You can only discard Market Square once anyway

If your first Feast gains a Cultist, which you reveal to Watchtower and trash to draw 3 cards after revealing and discarding the Market Square for trashing Feast, you could redraw the Market Square into your hand in time to not be able to discard it a second time.

I tried to get an edge case like this to work, the Market Square that you draw by trashing the Cultist can react to that very trashing.

Oh, boo.

[Warfreak2]

OK, so a card's effect can lose track of the card itself, I have been confusing myself rather a lot, then. DXV sez "if card A wants to move card B but it's not where card A expects it to be" which seemed to imply that they were two different cards; he did also say, don't quote him on that, though. I guess the actual rule would be the one from the rulebook, funny, eh?

Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.

[Jeebus]

Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.

It's both! See the example with Possession, Throne Room and Mining Village given by AJD earlier in the thread. MV tries to move itself to trash, but can't. To quote: "not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession"

And no, Throne Room can lose track of a card, because the card is not in play. It's been explained in this thread.

So: Cards will always be moved to play when they are played. Cards will always be moved to trash when they are trashed. But this can't happen if either (1) the card is already there, or (2) the card is not where it's expected to be. (And (1) will never be true without (2) also being true, because no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is by default. Edit: Throne Room and its ilk make only (1) happen.)

[GendoIkari]

Still, I wouldn't say that Feast fails to trash itself due to lose track; it fails to move itself to the trash because it's already there, something can't be moved to where it already is.

It's both! See the example with Possession, Throne Room and Mining Village given by AJD earlier in the thread. MV tries to move itself to trash, but can't. To quote: "not because it's already in the trash (it's not), but because it's lost track of itself due to being moved by Possession"

And no, Throne Room can lose track of a card, because the card is not in play. It's been explained in this thread.

So: Cards will always be moved to play when they are played. Cards will always be move to trash when they are trashed. But this can't happen if either (1) the card is already there, or (2) the card is not where it's expected to be. (And (1) will never be true without (2) also being true, because no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is by default.)

I don't think cards are always moved to play when they are played.... when you Throne Room a Feast, the second time it is played, it's played from the Trash, and never moves from the Trash.

[Jeebus]

I don't think cards are always moved to play when they are played.... when you Throne Room a Feast, the second time it is played, it's played from the Trash, and never moves from the Trash.

Because (2) is true. Throne Room lost track of it. What I meant was it always happens except when (1) or (2) is true.

[florrat]

Cards will always be moved to play when they are played.

no card effect is stupid enough to tell you to move a card to where it already is

Actually, Throne Room tells you to play a card twice, so if you throne room a festival, according to your definition of "play", the throne room will move the festival to play the second time, hence according to you, Throne Room is stupid enough (and I'm quite sure Throne Room hasn't lost track of festival, it is where Throne Room expects it to be, in play where he just moved it)

But this is about the very definitions of "move" and "play". It's not really important if Throne Room moves a festival from play to play, or if Throne Room does not move the festival the second time it plays it.

[Jeebus]

Actually, Throne Room tells you to play a card twice, so if you throne room a festival, according to your definition of "play", the throne room will move the festival to play the second time, hence according to you, Throne Room is stupid enough (and I'm quite sure Throne Room hasn't lost track of festival, it is where Throne Room expects it to be, in play where he just moved it)

Heh, you're right of course. Throne Room does indeed tell you to play a card that has already been played. I'm pretty sure it must be the only one (except KC, Procession and Counterfeit, which do the same thing). It's because playing a card does more than move it to play, so playing a card in play does something. Trashing and discarding is just movement.
Btw, it's not just my definition of play, it's in the rulebook, and the examples with TR, MV, Possession etc given in this thread are from Donald originally.