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[HiveMindEmulator]

In the Secret History of Dark Ages, Donald says that Rebuild was a late addition to the set. This may be the reason it fits so poorly with Dark Ages.

This brings up an interesting question. Donald says: "Originally it didn't give +1 Action, but that version could not compete." But from everything I'm reading people say about Rebuild, it seems like it would pretty strong even without the +1 Action. What gives? I'm sure Donald tested just mass Rebuild+Duchy in Province games without shelters. Are we missing something and overestimating its strength?

[Awaclus]

I'm not sure if Rebuild is better than Cultist, but if it isn't, Cultist should be the #1.

[Schneau]

In the Secret History of Dark Ages, Donald says that Rebuild was a late addition to the set. This may be the reason it fits so poorly with Dark Ages.

This brings up an interesting question. Donald says: "Originally it didn't give +1 Action, but that version could not compete." But from everything I'm reading people say about Rebuild, it seems like it would pretty strong even without the +1 Action. What gives? I'm sure Donald tested just mass Rebuild+Duchy in Province games without shelters. Are we missing something and overestimating its strength?

Part of it may be because Donald aimed the game at 3-player and 4-player more than 2-player, and maybe straight Rebuild + Duchy isn't as powerful there? I'm not even sure that's true since I haven't played any 3+ player games with Rebuild, but maybe it is?

[gman314]

I played a 3p game with Rebuild, and it was reasonably strong there.

[ragingduckd]

I played a 3p game with Rebuild, and it was reasonably strong there.

I'd expect Rebuild to be at its best in a 4-player game, with only 3 Provinces per player.

[WanderingWinder]

IGG is overrated.

Where do you have it?

The way I see it, it's bad when there is strong trashing, but otherwise it's like completely dominant. That's worse than the junking attacks and Wharf and Governor and Rebuild, which seem to be key cards practically all the time, but it's better than everything else.

Around 10th. It's bad with strong trashing, or in rushes, or with other cursers, or against good engines which have just middling trashing, and otherwise it's usually strong - but not *totally* dominant.

[AJD]

IGG is overrated.

Where do you have it?

The way I see it, it's bad when there is strong trashing, but otherwise it's like completely dominant. That's worse than the junking attacks and Wharf and Governor and Rebuild, which seem to be key cards practically all the time, but it's better than everything else.

Around 10th. It's bad with strong trashing, or in rushes, or with other cursers, or against good engines which have just middling trashing, and otherwise it's usually strong - but not *totally* dominant.

It's bad in rushes? Isn't the IGG-Gardens rush totally a thing? (And the IGG-Duchy rush too, of course.)

[Davio]

IGG is overrated.

Where do you have it?

The way I see it, it's bad when there is strong trashing, but otherwise it's like completely dominant. That's worse than the junking attacks and Wharf and Governor and Rebuild, which seem to be key cards practically all the time, but it's better than everything else.

Around 10th. It's bad with strong trashing, or in rushes, or with other cursers, or against good engines which have just middling trashing, and otherwise it's usually strong - but not *totally* dominant.

It's bad in rushes? Isn't the IGG-Gardens rush totally a thing? (And the IGG-Duchy rush too, of course.)

The IGG-Duchy rush isn't really a rush as you're only gaining one card per turn, so it will take at best ~20 turns to get them, which is plenty of time for a decent engine to overcome the Curses and points.

On to the actual list.

I would actually rate Wharf above Witch.
And of course Rebuild feels sad for being so low.

[HiveMindEmulator]

IGG is overrated.

Where do you have it?

The way I see it, it's bad when there is strong trashing, but otherwise it's like completely dominant. That's worse than the junking attacks and Wharf and Governor and Rebuild, which seem to be key cards practically all the time, but it's better than everything else.

Around 10th. It's bad with strong trashing, or in rushes, or with other cursers, or against good engines which have just middling trashing, and otherwise it's usually strong - but not *totally* dominant.

It's bad in rushes? Isn't the IGG-Gardens rush totally a thing? (And the IGG-Duchy rush too, of course.)

The IGG-Duchy rush isn't really a rush as you're only gaining one card per turn, so it will take at best ~20 turns to get them, which is plenty of time for a decent engine to overcome the Curses and points.

You definitely need more than a "decent" engine to overcome the Curses. If you go IGG and your opponent doesn't, it's pretty easy to buy Provinces if you just add in any draw card, since your deck is mostly treasures. Then the engine guy has to work his way through 10 Curses which slows down building up the engine a lot, and often by then the IGG guy can get half the Provinces. It's not a "rush", but you need good trashing to make an engine build up fast enough against it. IGG+Duchy is really only for the mirror.

[achmed_sender]

I'd say Cultist is above Witch. Of course, the ruins are way better than Curses, but if there is trashing, you have to trash the cards anyway and then nobody cares how bad the trashed cards were. So in this case (maybe more than 50% of curse games have trashing I suppose), Cultist is judt ridiculous faster in junking your opponents.
I had a game with a elite trasher (steward?) witch and cultist. My opponent went for witch, I went Cultist. He only gave me about 3 curses when the ruins pile was empty!

[DG]

Cultists have one big problem. Ruins are not so bad as curses. This leads to a variety of weaknesses, not least that looters are vulnerable to a 3 pile finish with the ruins having no direct impact on the score.

[jsh357]

While I'll agree Cultist can win against Witch when you pit them one on one, I still think Witch is a better card that's useful in a bigger variety of games.  Curses can win you a mirror, Ruins can't (unless Gardens or Vines are involved).  Curses can be Rabbled, Fortune Tellered, etc.  Ruins can occasionally help your opponent.  Don't get me wrong, Cultist is good, but there's no way it's above Witch and Mountebank.  Maybe it's better for some games, but not enough to rank it above them.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I'd say Cultist is above Witch. Of course, the ruins are way better than Curses, but if there is trashing, you have to trash the cards anyway and then nobody cares how bad the trashed cards were. So in this case (maybe more than 50% of curse games have trashing I suppose), Cultist is judt ridiculous faster in junking your opponents.
I had a game with a elite trasher (steward?) witch and cultist. My opponent went for witch, I went Cultist. He only gave me about 3 curses when the ruins pile was empty!

If you're going to trash the Ruins/Curses, then there's not much point in going mass Cultist. And in the case that you just have 1 Cultist, it's not any faster than Witch at junking. If you're not going to trash them, then Witch is better since Curses affect score. The only place Cultist is better is in the semi-engine decks where you're getting much of your draw from a Cultist chain. I'm not sure that happens often enough to make Cultist better than Witch.

[Awaclus]

I think that junking is relevant even in the presence of a trasher, because it slows down the trashing a lot. And the faster your junker is, the more it slows down the opponent's trashing. Mountebank is probably the best here, but Cultist is better than Witch. And without a trasher, getting two or more junkers is easy and often the correct play (though less so for Witches), and your Cultists never collide.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think that junking is relevant even in the presence of a trasher, because it slows down the trashing a lot. And the faster your junker is, the more it slows down the opponent's trashing. Mountebank is probably the best here, but Cultist is better than Witch. And without a trasher, getting two or more junkers is easy and often the correct play (though less so for Witches), and your Cultists never collide.

Junking is still relevant, but you usually only want 1 junker, so you can use your other buys on actual engine pieces. And if you only have one Cultist, the only advantage over Witch is the on-trash ability. Cultist is only faster than Witch if you mass it. But by massing it you slow down your engine building.

[LastFootnote]

I think that junking is relevant even in the presence of a trasher, because it slows down the trashing a lot. And the faster your junker is, the more it slows down the opponent's trashing. Mountebank is probably the best here, but Cultist is better than Witch. And without a trasher, getting two or more junkers is easy and often the correct play (though less so for Witches), and your Cultists never collide.

Junking is still relevant, but you usually only want 1 junker, so you can use your other buys on actual engine pieces. And if you only have one Cultist, the only advantage over Witch is the on-trash ability. Cultist is only faster than Witch if you mass it. But by massing it you slow down your engine building.

I don't think that's quite fair. Unlike Witches, Cultists themselves can make a decent draw component for an engine precisely because you can chain them.

[Powerman]

I think it is most appropriate at the $5 price point to group the actions by what they do to see the relative strengths.  Yes, these are not perfect (witch is after all a terminal draw and a junker, but... it's more of a junker than a drawer).

Junkers: Mountebank, Witch, Ill-Gotten Gains, Cultist
Terminal Draw: Wharf, Torturer, Ghost Ship, Margrave, Vault, Embassy, Catacombs, Rabble, Council Room, Library
Non-Terminal Draw: Hunting Party, Laboratory, Stables
Silver+ Treasures: Venture, Royal Seal, Cache, Contraband, Stash
Trash (from hand): Apprentice, Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Counterfeit, Trading Post, Graverobber, Mine
Terminal Money: Haggler, Jester, Merchant Ship, Mandarin, Explorer, Harvest
Village: Bandit Camp, Bazaar, Festival, City, Inn
Cantrip +: Highway, Cartographer, Market, Treasury
Trash (from opponent): Knights, Rogue, Saboteur
Other: Governor, Minion, Tactician, Duke, Count, Rebuild, Horn of Plenty, Band of Misfits, Pillage, Mint, Mystic, Tribute, Outpost, Counting House

What does this tell us generally?  Well, nothing we didn't already know, but it does say something about the mechanics...
-Junkers are very strong
-Terminal Draw is strong
-Non-Terminal Draw is good
-Silver+/Gold- treasures are very weak
-Trashing is a mixed bag.  Having a +Action makes them much better.
-Terminal money is pretty weak.
-Villages and cantrip+'s are middle of the road... useful, but rarely important on their own.
-Trashing from your opponents is pretty weak.

I find it most interesting looking in the other category.  A player just reading the text of Counting House and Rebuild would probably not be able to guess one is really strong and one is really weak...

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think that junking is relevant even in the presence of a trasher, because it slows down the trashing a lot. And the faster your junker is, the more it slows down the opponent's trashing. Mountebank is probably the best here, but Cultist is better than Witch. And without a trasher, getting two or more junkers is easy and often the correct play (though less so for Witches), and your Cultists never collide.

Junking is still relevant, but you usually only want 1 junker, so you can use your other buys on actual engine pieces. And if you only have one Cultist, the only advantage over Witch is the on-trash ability. Cultist is only faster than Witch if you mass it. But by massing it you slow down your engine building.

I don't think that's quite fair. Unlike Witches, Cultists themselves can make a decent draw component for an engine precisely because you can chain them.

This is why I previously stated that there is one set of scenarios in which Cultist is better than Witch, and that's semi-engine where you're using Cultists to draw. But Cultists aren't the best drawers, so in many engines you'd rather look somewhere else for your drawing, and it's likely going to require spending your $5 buys on that.

It is an interesting question how often this comes up. I guess if you have villages that decrease hand-size, Cultist becomes a more attractive drawer since you will be able to get some off without spending actions on them. Perhaps you're willing to get a second or third Cultist in this case. If there's no other good draw, you may be forced to use it as the draw card. What else?

Then the question is how often these scenarios show up and how important they are compared to the scenarios where Witch is better (times when you won't end up trashing the Curses).

[markusin]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

[mail-mi]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

[KingZog3]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

Cultist draw works often enough that its quite good. And why does it make it terminal draw? I have Village and Cultist in my hand, and draw 2 more Cultists is better than having a Hunting Grounds. Sure I had to buy all the Cultists, but I also probably loaded my opponent with all the Ruins in a time frame of about 3-4 turns. Yes the +3 cards on trash ability is great with TFB cards, but using Cultist simply to draw after the Ruins are gone is good.

[markusin]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

I still think Cultist doesn't make for particularly powerful engines when it's the only draw card. I don't think I ever get more than 3 Cultists, and it seems to me that massing up cultists like they were minions is not optimal. It only looks strong relative to your ruins ridden opponent's deck.

[markusin]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

Cultist draw works often enough that its quite good. And why does it make it terminal draw? I have Village and Cultist in my hand, and draw 2 more Cultists is better than having a Hunting Grounds. Sure I had to buy all the Cultists, but I also probably loaded my opponent with all the Ruins in a time frame of about 3-4 turns. Yes the +3 cards on trash ability is great with TFB cards, but using Cultist simply to draw after the Ruins are gone is good.

That's exactly it. Cultist is such a hard card to ignore because it not only dishes out ruins really quickly, but it also has a follow-up plan. However, the draw ability of the Cultist wanes when the ruins are split between the players, as it often is. You'll just draw more ruins a lot of the time. That's when cards like forager come to the rescue.

[KingZog3]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

Cultist draw works often enough that its quite good. And why does it make it terminal draw? I have Village and Cultist in my hand, and draw 2 more Cultists is better than having a Hunting Grounds. Sure I had to buy all the Cultists, but I also probably loaded my opponent with all the Ruins in a time frame of about 3-4 turns. Yes the +3 cards on trash ability is great with TFB cards, but using Cultist simply to draw after the Ruins are gone is good.

That's exactly it. Cultist is such a hard card to ignore because it not only dishes out ruins really quickly, but it also has a follow-up plan. However, the draw ability of the Cultist wanes when the ruins are split between the players, as it often is. You'll just draw more ruins a lot of the time. That's when cards like forager come to the rescue.

Well Forager can be good enough trashing that maybe Cultists may not be the best option (sometimes). But the fact still remains, Cultist draw is pretty good. It's irrelevant whether Ruins block it, because maybe you have watchtower to trash them when you gain them. It depends on the board.

[markusin]

The thing about Cultist is that it gives you more options than Witch after the junk pile is empty. You can trash it and get a nice 1-turn bonus, or get a bunch of them and go for some sort of terminal draw thing. I'd say that just trashing the Cultists after the ruins have been given out tends to be more helpful. Now if your opponent has all the ruins, terminal draw is probably enough to seal the game, but if your opponent retaliates with junkers of their own it might not be enough.

Scenarios where you have a semi-engine that can use Cultist for draw are pretty uncommon. More often, loading up on Cultists strips your deck of whatever your deck could have been and turns it into a terminal draw deck. Even when there is a semi-engine, the Cultist draw is not that great.

R u kidding? I do cultist engines all the time.

Cultist draw works often enough that its quite good. And why does it make it terminal draw? I have Village and Cultist in my hand, and draw 2 more Cultists is better than having a Hunting Grounds. Sure I had to buy all the Cultists, but I also probably loaded my opponent with all the Ruins in a time frame of about 3-4 turns. Yes the +3 cards on trash ability is great with TFB cards, but using Cultist simply to draw after the Ruins are gone is good.

That's exactly it. Cultist is such a hard card to ignore because it not only dishes out ruins really quickly, but it also has a follow-up plan. However, the draw ability of the Cultist wanes when the ruins are split between the players, as it often is. You'll just draw more ruins a lot of the time. That's when cards like forager come to the rescue.

Well Forager can be good enough trashing that maybe Cultists may not be the best option (sometimes). But the fact still remains, Cultist draw is pretty good. It's irrelevant whether Ruins block it, because maybe you have watchtower to trash them when you gain them. It depends on the board.

Fair enough. It's much better draw than Witch anyway. But you know, often times players will want to trash their witch once the curses are gone because the Witch won't add much anymore, so why not the Cultist as well? It even gives you a bonus if you trash it. Of course, you get the best of both worlds by playing Cultist with Procession. Now that's a great payoff.