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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157395 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #350 on: June 09, 2013, 07:01:07 pm »
0

Someone convince me that Rebuild shouldn't be #1. Almost every time I play with it, it seems more and more like it should be.

I have been feeling that way for quite some time.

That's because Rebuild basically does the whole point of Dominion all by itself.  All you have to do is feed it Duchies.
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flowuhpowuh

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #351 on: June 10, 2013, 04:19:53 pm »
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A question because I haven't played with Rebuild too much but it seems very strong:

where do people think it would be on this list if it was terminal?
(that is, assuming that its current list position is too low)
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #352 on: June 11, 2013, 09:24:08 pm »
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A question because I haven't played with Rebuild too much but it seems very strong:

where do people think it would be on this list if it was terminal?
(that is, assuming that its current list position is too low)

It's current position is WAY too low, and I think it would only make it slightly worse. Yes, you can't play multiple in a turn, but it's looking like only having 2-3 is the optimal amount, and your deck is all green cards, meaning they don't collide all the time. Probably still near the top of the list.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #353 on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:12 pm »
+1

When can we expect the next part?
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #354 on: June 14, 2013, 12:43:42 pm »
+2

When can we expect the next part?

I'm more and more hesitant to say anything because I broke my promises already too often. But let me say Monday next week.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #355 on: June 17, 2013, 06:08:08 pm »
+10

When can we expect the next part?

I'm more and more hesitant to say anything because I broke my promises already too often. But let me say Monday next week.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225808#msg225808

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #356 on: June 17, 2013, 06:17:57 pm »
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Overall, I can't complain too much about the top of the list. We've already said a million times that Rebuild should be up here, so I won't say it again. Otherwise, it's mostly the right cards, though I do think that Torturer and Cultist are overrated and I didn't have them in the top 11 (though Cultist probably deserves it).

Otherwise, I think that Hunting Party and Wharf are a few spots overrated and Ghost Ship, Governor, and IGG are a tad underrated. But, things are close enough to not make a fuss about it.
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werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #357 on: June 17, 2013, 06:25:09 pm »
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Looks about right.  I think next time around, Rebuild and Soothsayer will both be in the top 11.
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gman314

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #358 on: June 17, 2013, 06:26:58 pm »
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In my mind, Torturer belongs up here for the same reason Rebuild does: I don't understand it. When I get it, the other guy ignores it and beats it or gets his engine going faster, and when I ignore it, the other guy Torturer-pins me. Similar things happen with Rebuild.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #359 on: June 17, 2013, 06:39:54 pm »
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Eh, this list has all the right cards (well, except Rebuild, which should probably be #1), but in a rather off order.

Here's the correct list, ignoring the Rebuild problem:

1. Witch -- It's better than Mountebank. No by much. But it is. The Curses fly in faster, making them harder to block.
2. Mountebank -- Occasionally the extra damage would be an upgrade over Witch. Is this usually the case? I don't think so. And then consider all the cases where the extra attack is preferable, like Counting House, Trader, Gardens, possibly Apothecary and PStone.
3. Cultist -- Junk is junk. And you can chain this guy.
4. Wharf -- I sense this should be a place behind Cultist, but I could be wrong.
5. IGG -- Almost always important.
6. Governor -- Again, almost always important.
7. Hunting Party -- Hugely overrated on this list! Don't get me wrong, it's a great card. Really great. The stack does wonders. But the top 6 are just even more essential, usually, and no less strong. Governor may be a little more skippable than HP, but I think it has an even bigger effect on the game when you do need it. The rest aren't really close.
8. Torturer -- These last three are hard to rank, and I could actually see Minion beating out Torturer. But when a Torturer chain is possible, that's just like automatically the thing to go for, it's so strong.
9. Minion
10. Ghost Ship
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #360 on: June 17, 2013, 06:40:38 pm »
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Oh, and I wasn't really considering the Guilds cards at all, obviously. No idea about them yet. The Cursing one should of course grace the top 10. But I've only played with it once.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #361 on: June 17, 2013, 07:25:23 pm »
+1

IGG is overrated.

eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #362 on: June 17, 2013, 07:37:15 pm »
+1

Who put Mountebank at 22%??  ???
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #363 on: June 17, 2013, 08:25:03 pm »
+2

Who put Mountebank at 22%??  ???

Same person who put IGG at 5% and Governor at 0% ?
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #364 on: June 17, 2013, 08:34:34 pm »
+1

Will post full comments later, but main thing I say is Tactician is overrated.  It's not great for good engines, because well... normally they can work both turns anyway.  It's not great for terminal draw BM.  It's best either as Double-Tac, which needs a good board for it, or in some weird combo deck.  Regardless, I think it should not be ahead of say... Margrave, or Embassy.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #365 on: June 17, 2013, 09:30:29 pm »
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Overall, seems mostly right. Rebuild being 26 is the grossest mistake ever. I agree with Powerman that Tactician is overrated. I wouldn't have it in the top 11.

I think Robz has the rankings spot on except Mountebank is usually better than Witch. I would put Cultist above Wharf and Governor above Hunting Party. With Soothsayer maybe the top 5 will look something like this.

1. Rebuild
2. Mountebank
3. Witch
4. Cultist
5. Soothsayer

Maybe Soothsayer is better than Cultist, but Cultist is so fast. And, I have only used Soothsayer like 3 times or so.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #366 on: June 17, 2013, 09:37:13 pm »
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I can't see Soothsayer being that high on the list... giving your opponent a Lab is too big a drawback, especially if they are playing with the knowledge that they might be getting a Lab.  Not saying it's a bad $5 card by any means, but Witch/MBank/Cultist are so good because they flat out give your opponent junk.  The Gold gain is of course great, but not immediate and pretty useless in the last couple of turns barring edge cases.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #367 on: June 17, 2013, 09:50:32 pm »
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I can't see Soothsayer being that high on the list... giving your opponent a Lab is too big a drawback, especially if they are playing with the knowledge that they might be getting a Lab.  Not saying it's a bad $5 card by any means, but Witch/MBank/Cultist are so good because they flat out give your opponent junk.  The Gold gain is of course great, but not immediate and pretty useless in the last couple of turns barring edge cases.

I have not played with Soothsayer much, but the reason I think it might hit that high (and, it very well might not) is because it makes the game fast for a cursing game. Of the three games I played two of them ended 16 and 18 turns respectively.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #368 on: June 17, 2013, 09:59:39 pm »
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I can't see Soothsayer being that high on the list... giving your opponent a Lab is too big a drawback, especially if they are playing with the knowledge that they might be getting a Lab.  Not saying it's a bad $5 card by any means, but Witch/MBank/Cultist are so good because they flat out give your opponent junk.  The Gold gain is of course great, but not immediate and pretty useless in the last couple of turns barring edge cases.

I have not played with Soothsayer much, but the reason I think it might hit that high (and, it very well might not) is because it makes the game fast for a cursing game. Of the three games I played two of them ended 16 and 18 turns respectively.

Why does that suggest that Soothsayer is better?  You could interpret it as being worse because it doesn't slow down your opponents as well. ;)
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #369 on: June 17, 2013, 10:03:32 pm »
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Maybe Soothsayer is better than Cultist, but Cultist is so fast. And, I have only used Soothsayer like 3 times or so.
Not that I have a great feel for Soothsayer, but I feel like Cultist has to be better, because, like you said, Cultist is SO FAST.  And Soothsayer really isn't, it's slow.  The free Gold is great, but it actually slows you down, it means you're going to be just that much slower getting back to the Soothsayer again.  And it actually helps your opponent get to a reshuffle a little sooner!  When there isn't another junker on the board, that doesn't matter.  But I think Soothsayer has to be the weakest of the $5 junkers overall, because of the tempo issue.  Not to mention the fact that it's the only $5 junker that does nothing at all for you the turn you play it.

I feel it's kind of like the difference between Marauder and Sea Hag, sort of.  Sea Hag's better mostly because it's faster, although its "speed" derives more from the fact that it's very effective at slowing your opponents down rather than accelerating your game.  The Spoils from Marauder is great, but the tempo advantage that Sea Hag gives you outweighs whatever benefit you might get from the Spoils.

EDIT: unrelated, but I just have to say, Hunting Party and Ill-Gotten Gains are both overrated here.  And I say that as someone who loves both HP stacks and going for IGG rushes.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:27:28 pm by jaybeez »
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #370 on: June 17, 2013, 10:28:05 pm »
+3

I think that the power of Soothsayer will be that, even if you lose the Curse split 4-6, you have the extra 4 Golds too.  If the game turns into a slog, then the extra buying power from your Golds may well make up for the loss in the Curse split.

Edit:  Also, I see lots of people comment that the Soothsayer doesn't give enough immediate benefit.  Witch gives +2 Cards.  Mountebank gives +$2.  But Soothsayer's Gold you won't see until the next reshuffle!  But one thing to keep in mind is, what were you going to do with that +2 Cards or +$2?  For much of the game, you would hope for it to boost you to $6 so that you can afford to buy a Gold (which you won't draw until next shuffle!).  Soothsayer just gives you that Gold outright, leaving you to spend the remainder of your hand on a Silver or something.  This is weaker in the end game when you want a Province, not a Gold.  But hey, by that point your Soothsayer has already accumulated what, four or five Golds?  She's done her job.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:33:11 pm by SirPeebles »
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #371 on: June 17, 2013, 10:30:32 pm »
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I think that the power of Soothsayer will be that, even if you lose the Curse split 4-6, you have the extra 4 Golds too.  If the game turns into a slog, then the extra buying power from your Golds may well make up for the loss in the Curse split.

But if you lose the Curse split, doesn't your opponent have more Golds as well?
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #372 on: June 17, 2013, 10:37:32 pm »
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I think that the power of Soothsayer will be that, even if you lose the Curse split 4-6, you have the extra 4 Golds too.  If the game turns into a slog, then the extra buying power from your Golds may well make up for the loss in the Curse split.

But if you lose the Curse split, doesn't your opponent have more Golds as well?

I thought we were talking about Soothsayer's strength relative to other junkers.  So I'm assuming that your opponent bought, say, Witch instead.

You can't really argue that Soothsayer is weak because it lost in a mirror match with itself.
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #373 on: June 17, 2013, 10:50:46 pm »
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But one thing to keep in mind is, what were you going to do with that +2 Cards or +$2?  For much of the game, you would hope for it to boost you to $6 so that you can afford to buy a Gold (which you won't draw until next shuffle!).
Well, sometimes you want $6 for a Gold.  But often getting to $5 is actually more important, which +2 Cards or +$2 can help you do right away as opposed to next shuffle.  And the +2 Cards bonus helps you get to play your key cards like your junker(s) more.  I just don't think exchanging that for a free Gold (and giving your opponent a Council Room effect!) is a good move.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)
« Reply #374 on: June 17, 2013, 11:16:26 pm »
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I think Cultist has a slight edge over Witch in games with good trashing. Witch is devastating when ignoring it leaves you with a deck of 10 or so curses at the end, but when good trashing is available it's harder to keep up with the ruins of the Cultist than the curses of the Witch. The tempo loss when facing against Cultist can really leave you behind.

And Soothsayer? You can still maintain an engine if you can trash the gold for benefit. And that +1 card the other player gets for some reason doesn't seem to be as much of a backfire as Council Room, maybe because curses are bound to be present.
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