Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 18  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157423 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #325 on: May 27, 2013, 03:07:52 am »
0

Estates hurt you worse than Curses if you've won the Duchy split, but pile-driving Estates can be better than going after Provinces if you've lost it.

Not sure I get this... could you elaborate?

He probably means that you:
1. have less chance hitting Duchy>Province with lots of Estates in your deck
2. there are no Duchies left to upgrade your Estates into (so you have to Estate>Estate, which is a dead turn basically)

Whether Curses hurt you less I don't know, but the big issue with Rebuild is that you have virtually no chance of coming back once you're behind. And this Estate problem is part of that.
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #326 on: May 27, 2013, 04:10:17 am »
+2

Estates hurt you worse than Curses if you've won the Duchy split, but pile-driving Estates can be better than going after Provinces if you've lost it.

Not sure I get this... could you elaborate?

He probably means that you:
1. have less chance hitting Duchy>Province with lots of Estates in your deck
2. there are no Duchies left to upgrade your Estates into (so you have to Estate>Estate, which is a dead turn basically)

Whether Curses hurt you less I don't know, but the big issue with Rebuild is that you have virtually no chance of coming back once you're behind. And this Estate problem is part of that.

Thanks, kn1tt3r.  That's most of my story.  I'll just elaborate on the pile-driving Estates defense, which I learned from SheCantSayNo.

When you lose the Duchy split, it's often because you bought some extra Rebuilds, sifters, or Estates while your opponent bought an extra Duchy and/or rebuilt his Estates faster.  So you're behind on Duchies and you're stuck with some un-rebuildable Estates.  Your deck can play Rebuild more often than your opponent's, but you're going to run out of Duchies first.

Trying to catch up by buying Provinces is tough because you don't have much cash after racing for Duchies.  But you're never too poor for Estates, and Estates are more valuable than usual.  A purchased Province is six Estates, but a Province that's rebuilt from a Duchy is only three.  Furthermore, your opponent can't buy Estates without slowing down his Duchy rebuilding (and he can't afford Provinces either).

So a reasonable defense is to buy out the remaining Estates while running out the Province pile (play Rebuild naming Estate).  If you're lucky, you make use of your deck's superior sifting/rebuilding to end the game before your opponent can rebuild use of his extra Duchies.  While losing the Duchy split is never a good thing, this defense gives you a fighting chance.  Trying to buy Provinces usually doesn't.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #327 on: May 27, 2013, 04:45:46 am »
+1

Well, obviously the player who is ahead should just mirror that (piledive Estates and protect them upon Rebuilding), as for him trashing a Province into Province is pretty good since it brings the game closer to an end with less VP left for your opponent to grab.

I see people protecting their Provinces alot, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that while it can be the right play in a few specific situations, it's pretty bad as a default.
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #328 on: May 27, 2013, 05:36:29 am »
+1

Well, obviously the player who is ahead should just mirror that (piledive Estates and protect them upon Rebuilding), as for him trashing a Province into Province is pretty good since it brings the game closer to an end with less VP left for your opponent to grab.

I see people protecting their Provinces alot, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that while it can be the right play in a few specific situations, it's pretty bad as a default.

I don't quite follow.  Are you saying your play was only reasonable because I didn't respond correctly?  I thought that your defense was correct and that, as the player with the extra Duchies, I was also correct to pass on Estates.

I agree that the player with a Duchy advantage is the favorite to win if both pile-drive Estates, but he's the favorite to win anyway.  Both players pile-driving seems better for the player who lost the split than the usual situation does.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #329 on: May 27, 2013, 05:56:48 am »
0

Are you saying your play was only reasonable because I didn't respond correctly?

No, I think it was correct regardless of how you would respond, but I also think that your best response would have been to mirror.

Quote
Both players pile-driving seems better for the player who lost the split than the usual situation does.

How so?
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #330 on: May 27, 2013, 08:34:52 am »
0

Quote
Both players pile-driving seems better for the player who lost the split than the usual situation does.

How so?

What I'm calling "the usual situation" is when the player who's ahead on Duchies rebuilds into Provinces while the player who's behind tries to actually buy a Province or two.  That's a pretty lousy proposition for the player who's behind.

On the other hand, if both players are buying Estates and naming Estate when they play Rebuild, then it's something of a crapshoot as to who ends up rebuilding Duchies and who ends up rebuilding Provinces.  There's also more opportunity for the stronger player to track his shuffle and sometimes name Province instead of Estate.  The player who's behind gets more chances to get lucky and catch up, and if he's also better at tracking his shuffles, then he has more opportunities to benefit from that skill too.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #331 on: May 27, 2013, 03:40:03 pm »
0

On the other hand, if both players are buying Estates and naming Estate when they play Rebuild, then it's something of a crapshoot as to who ends up rebuilding Duchies and who ends up rebuilding Provinces.

Unless you have only two types of victory cards in your deck, Rebuild, like many cards in dominion, always carries with it a decent amount of randomness, regardless of what you name. I disagree that this strategy in particular makes it a crapshoot.

Assume you've won the Duchy split 5-3 and have at least one Estate*. When you want to maximize the probability of Rebuilding into Provinces, it's clearly best** to name Estate until you have at least as many Provinces as Estates. Once you have exactly as many and you are ahead, you still want to name Estate because Rebuilding Province->Province is better for you (since it brings the game closer to an end and removes VP from the kingdom) than Rebuilding Estate->Estate.

So only once you have strictly more Provinces than Estates can you even start to consider naming Province as a default. Whether you want to is a different question. If you have 3 or more Provinces, the only way for your opponent to catch up is to directly buy Provinces. In order to prevent this, you want to deplete the Province pile asap, and your best chance for doing this is again by naming Estate. So the only questionable spot that remains is having exactly 2 Provinces and one Estate, and I can't really provide a clear-cut answer to that case. I think it would depend alot on how far behind your opponent is and his chances (in terms of direct Province buys) of catching up. In any case, even this isn't a clear "name Province" spot to me.

So since in most cases it's best to name Estate, you might as well piledrive them to grab a few extra VPs and prevent your opponent from getting them. Sure, they clog your deck a bit, but that's not such a big deal as you're looking to draw one specific card, not hit a certain amount of money.

Quote
There's also more opportunity for the stronger player to track his shuffle and sometimes name Province instead of Estate.

I consider this a good thing, though I can see why you would think it's not :P

*When you have 5 Duchies and no Estates I think it's indeed best to always name Province and not buy Estates.
**Assuming for simplicity a fresh reshuffle with no green in hand.
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #332 on: May 27, 2013, 04:58:50 pm »
0

Once you have exactly as many and you are ahead, you still want to name Estate because Rebuilding Province->Province is better for you (since it brings the game closer to an end and removes VP from the kingdom) than Rebuilding Estate->Estate.
This is the key point we differ on.  I think the +Duchies player wants a longer game.  His Duchy-rebuilding prospects are better than his opponent's Province-buying prospects.

We should probably move this discussion to a dedicated thread or to e-mail.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #333 on: May 27, 2013, 06:20:06 pm »
0

Once you have exactly as many and you are ahead, you still want to name Estate because Rebuilding Province->Province is better for you (since it brings the game closer to an end and removes VP from the kingdom) than Rebuilding Estate->Estate.
This is the key point we differ on.  I think the +Duchies player wants a longer game.  His Duchy-rebuilding prospects are better than his opponent's Province-buying prospects.

I certainly agree that his Duchy-rebuilding prospects are better than his opponent's Province-buying prospects, but that doesn't automatically mean that you want a longer game, as it might decrease your win % even if you're still a big favorite. However, I don't think it actually does and you're probably right here.

But... that still means that when the -Duchies player is going to piledrive Estates, he's evidently not going for a Province buy strategy, so you can no longer count on a long game. Now those Estates VP are going to be extra important (since there'll be quite some Province->Province Rebuilding, there's less VP overall and as you mentioned Duchy->Province only nets you 3), and generally I don't think you can afford to not mirror, unless you have 0 Estates.

I think we have to use the simulator to settle the matter, though. Whish I knew how to use it... everytime I plan on learning it I think "meh, I'd rather play an actual game!"

Quote
We should probably move this discussion to a dedicated thread or to e-mail.

Heh, at least we're still talking about a $5 card.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #334 on: May 27, 2013, 07:10:42 pm »
+1

Curiously enough, two of the three games I've played today were Rebuild games. Both were kinda interesting, but I only have the log of the second. I get "unlucky" by not being able to buy a Familiar on T3 or T4, but grab instead a Baron and a Rebuild, which I knew was a strong combo but apparently it's so strong that Familiar is too slow and I have to help my opponent piledrive the Curses!
Logged

thirtyseven

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 362
  • Respect: +475
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #335 on: June 08, 2013, 07:49:45 pm »
0

So, while we wait patiently for the last part, what's everyone's order for the remaining cards?
Logged
I'm only a mid-level player, so I may be wrong...

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #336 on: June 09, 2013, 02:17:52 am »
0

So, while we wait patiently for the last part, what's everyone's order for the remaining cards?

I know I put Rebuild in my top 5. I am sad that it was severely underestimated in these rankings. Anyway, I think Mountebank will be 1, Witch 2, and Cultist 3. That's my guess for the top 3.
Logged

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1119
  • Respect: +786
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #337 on: June 09, 2013, 05:34:42 am »
0

So, while we wait patiently for the last part, what's everyone's order for the remaining cards?

I know I put Rebuild in my top 5. I am sad that it was severely underestimated in these rankings. Anyway, I think Mountebank will be 1, Witch 2, and Cultist 3. That's my guess for the top 3.
I don't think Cultist will be so high, at least not above IGG.
Logged

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #338 on: June 09, 2013, 06:03:27 am »
0

My probably highly-controversial top 5:

1. Cultist
2. Rebuild
3. Mountebank
4. Witch
5. IGG

All are absolute power-houses, but in a kingdom consisting only of any two of these cards, the higher ranked one is gonna be dominant and the lower ranked one becomes pretty much ignorable (at least until the ruins are gone, in the case of Cultist).

Logged

Mr Anderson

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
  • Respect: +191
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #339 on: June 09, 2013, 07:05:04 am »
0

Wharf is definitely in the top 5.
Logged

achmed_sender

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 234
  • Shuffle iT Username: achmedsender
  • Respect: +202
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #340 on: June 09, 2013, 11:54:51 am »
0

Wharf is definitely in the top 5.

Yeah, maybe Wharf above IGG, and as 7th HP.
And I don't think Rebuild is above Witch or MB, it seems fine at 5th or 6th
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #341 on: June 09, 2013, 12:01:38 pm »
0

I wonder how these rankings would look if we all mostly played 4-player games. It's possible they'd be very similar, but I wouldn't be shocked if the junkers weren't all on top like this.
Logged

Just a Rube

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 197
  • Respect: +385
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #342 on: June 09, 2013, 01:18:34 pm »
0

I wonder how these rankings would look if we all mostly played 4-player games. It's possible they'd be very similar, but I wouldn't be shocked if the junkers weren't all on top like this.
Junkers are still pretty strong in 4 player. Sure, you can in principle skip them with less of a loss (since your opponents will be junking each other), but your deck will still be junked enough to be very painful.

What would really take a hit is cards like Minion or Hunting Party, where you want a bunch of them. It's really hard to run an engine based on either one with only 2.5 Minions or HPs. On the other hand things like Jester become insane, and pirate ship and thief become significantly stronger.

3-piling is much more common, so something like city obviously would be bumped up a lot, but once again you can't count on getting too many (especially since buying the last city is almost always a sucker's move).

Things like treasure map get stronger (simply because the odds of winning go down, so taking a gamble becomes more appealing, especially for poor player 4), while engines get weaker.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #343 on: June 09, 2013, 01:33:31 pm »
0

Saboteur becomes relatively better in the sense that if 3 players get Saboteurs, it's hard to combat a $2 loss almost every hand.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

brokoli

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1119
  • Respect: +786
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #344 on: June 09, 2013, 01:50:05 pm »
0

I definitely think HP is overall better than Wharf, even with dark ages, because wharf is not the only good terminal draw, there are a lot of other : ghost ship, torturer, cultist, Embassy... which are better or not depending on the board. There is not so much non-terminal draw cards, only lab, stables and Hunting party.
My top 5 is something like Mountebank-Witch-IGG-Cultist-Hunting party or Rebuild
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #345 on: June 09, 2013, 02:31:19 pm »
0

So, while we wait patiently for the last part, what's everyone's order for the remaining cards?

I know I put Rebuild in my top 5. I am sad that it was severely underestimated in these rankings. Anyway, I think Mountebank will be 1, Witch 2, and Cultist 3. That's my guess for the top 3.
I don't think Cultist will be so high, at least not above IGG.

I think Cultist is better than IGG, because it's possible to go for decks with a single Cultist and other stuff. IGG is kind of all-or-nothing. If you're not just rushing the IGGs, you're usually better of skipping them entirely, while the other junkers you can get as a part of your engine, giving them much greater utility. For me the top of the list is Mountebank, Witch, Cultist. Then I have Wharf, IGG, Governor at 4-6. But I could see IGG moving up or down a slot.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #346 on: June 09, 2013, 04:17:28 pm »
+6

Someone convince me that Rebuild shouldn't be #1. Almost every time I play with it, it seems more and more like it should be.

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #347 on: June 09, 2013, 04:59:12 pm »
0

I would bet on Mountebank-Witch-Cultist-Torturer-Wharf-Governor-Ghost Ship-IGG being the top, although I suspect Ghost Ship may be underrated and Wharf and Governor may be overrated.

I think Rebuild has a similar taste to IGG in which is all-or-nothing most of the time, but IGG seems like it has more counters (basically, almost every Curser will make IGG weak, while I don't know of single cards that will make Rebuild clearly weak). Also, Rebuild seems like it will combo with many cards while IGG only combos with TfB, and not as powerfully.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #348 on: June 09, 2013, 06:45:47 pm »
0

Someone convince me that Rebuild shouldn't be #1. Almost every time I play with it, it seems more and more like it should be.

I have been feeling that way for quite some time.
Logged

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2577
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4340
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #349 on: June 09, 2013, 06:54:49 pm »
+1

I don't know about it being #1, but Rebuild's definitely top 3.

For me the Top 10 is
1. Witch
2. Mountebank
3. Rebuild
4. Wharf
5. Governor
6. Hunting Party
7. IGG
8. Tactician
9. Cultist
10. Minion

Honorable mention to Apprentice.  For the record, I think Torturer is one of the most overrated cards in the game.  Top 15, but annoying more often than it's dominating.

I have no idea how I ranked these when Qvist ran the poll, but I imagine it's different now.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 06:56:57 pm by jsh357 »
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 18  All
 

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 21 queries.