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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 6/6)  (Read 157391 times)

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DG

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #300 on: May 24, 2013, 08:50:47 am »
+1

Quote
Checking good old CouncilRoom, I see the average %with for all players was 59.7%. I played 94.6% of my games with it; only Fishing Village and tournament are higher.

I'm guessing that for Stef there isn't such a thing as a big money game. He just needs a few four player militia games against the Goko bots to knock some sense into him.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #301 on: May 24, 2013, 12:14:28 pm »
0

I think this section of the list is pretty reasonable for the remaining cards. The right cards are mostly in the top 11. I think Duke should be up there instead of Tactician, but other than that, it seems fine. I do think, however, that all the cards 16-20 (Lab, Haggler, Stables, Upgrade, Bandit) shouldn't have been up here while there are cards that are really often the focal point of games that are below (Duke, Highway, Rabble, Horn, City, Rebuild). But I guess a lot of it is related to the ranking philosophy. I feel that in general, the "general purpose" cards like Labs are getting rated too high relative to the "specialty" cards.

Getting into something specific, I don't see how Haggler can be better than Horn. Haggler gives money and then gains a cheap card, while Horn doesn't give money but gains a potentially expensive card. So a lot of times you can gain the same pair of cards with them, but Horn has much greater potential, letting you gain multiple cards at the same price point or even play multiple Horns to gain a lot of cards since they're treasures. Haggler is only better if you're not drawing enough cards to make use of Horn. But in those decks, you don't really care much for gaining anyway, and you're probably just gaining Silver. So Haggler is better for Silver-heavy strategies, but worse for any engine. You could easily invert their positions in the rankings. (I have Horn at 12 and Haggler at 25).
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #302 on: May 24, 2013, 12:51:02 pm »
+3

I disagree. Horn of Plenty takes a lot more work to set up than Haggler, and doesn't work on as many boards.

Also, if I have $6 to spend without my Haggler, I'll have $8 total and can pick up a Province and a Gold/$5 card. If I have $6 and a Horn of Plenty, even if I have 8 different cards in play and can gain the same two cards (Province, Gold/$5), my Horn gets trashed when I gain the Province.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #303 on: May 24, 2013, 03:53:29 pm »
0

The only card I put in the top 11 that's come out already is Margrave (and I put that 11th) so I agree that the top cards are correct, although we'll see about their order.

One card I think is overrated here is Haggler, but I've seen a lot of people saying otherwise. I find it's rare you get the circumstances to make it much more than a terminal silver/workshop hybrid that occasionally gains a $5, which is certainly good, but not top 30 $5's good. Those rare occasions you can make it do more push it up a bit, but probably I'd say outside the top 20 at best.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #304 on: May 24, 2013, 04:11:26 pm »
+3

Haggler is probably better than HoP on a lot of engine boards. It essentially doubles the number of buys that you use and almost doubles your buying power depending on what cards in are in kingdom.

Saying that Haggler is only a good enabler for strategies that like Silver is really short-sighted; almost as much as, say, Workshop is only a good enabler for Gardens.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #305 on: May 24, 2013, 05:05:27 pm »
+1

I find it a little weird that Haggler is so high. In general, I have felt that all the gainers have been underrated on these lists, but for some reason people really like Haggler. I guess it's because it's the gainer that works best in non-engine strategies, so it seems like it comes up more often. But as has been argued in a lot of places, I think the main role of gainers is in engines, and HoP is like the ultimate engine card.

Also, if I have $6 to spend without my Haggler, I'll have $8 total and can pick up a Province and a Gold/$5 card. If I have $6 and a Horn of Plenty, even if I have 8 different cards in play and can gain the same two cards (Province, Gold/$5), my Horn gets trashed when I gain the Province.

The problem with this type of argument is that it ignores how you got to your current situation, and what happens the rest of the game. On a given turn, having one card may be better than having another, but you have to evaluate cards in the context of the entire game rather than an individual turn. With the HoP in that situation, maybe you just want to gain 2 more HoPs and then cash them in next turn or the turn after. Maybe you'd be in a situation where you're not just looking at $6 since you had your terminal action to spend on something else. On the whole, Horn of Plenty usually dominates the game, and all strategy is built around it. Haggler is more like just a good gainer. You often still need to find a +buy elsewhere.

Saying that Haggler is only a good enabler for strategies that like Silver is really short-sighted; almost as much as, say, Workshop is only a good enabler for Gardens.
I didn't say Haggler is only good there. I said that's the only real place where you want a gainer but don't want HoP.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #306 on: May 24, 2013, 05:20:45 pm »
+3

The problem with this type of argument is that it ignores how you got to your current situation, and what happens the rest of the game. On a given turn, having one card may be better than having another, but you have to evaluate cards in the context of the entire game rather than an individual turn. With the HoP in that situation, maybe you just want to gain 2 more HoPs and then cash them in next turn or the turn after. Maybe you'd be in a situation where you're not just looking at $6 since you had your terminal action to spend on something else. On the whole, Horn of Plenty usually dominates the game, and all strategy is built around it. Haggler is more like just a good gainer. You often still need to find a +buy elsewhere.

Look, dude. I tried to explain my reasoning as best I know how. Your example isn't any more specific.

Also, Horn of Plenty usually dominates the game? Really? Usually? I'd say that when Horn of Plenty is good, it's worlds better than Haggler, but Haggler is better on most boards.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:22:51 pm by LastFootnote »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #307 on: May 24, 2013, 06:10:47 pm »
0

Also, Horn of Plenty usually dominates the game? Really? Usually? I'd say that when Horn of Plenty is good, it's worlds better than Haggler, but Haggler is better on most boards.
Yes, usually. I'd say like 2/3 of the time? At least half.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 06:12:11 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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lespeutere

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #308 on: May 24, 2013, 06:55:11 pm »
0

as an early game trasher [junk dealer]'s much better than upgrade (especially with shelters)

This is - uhm - debatable.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #309 on: May 24, 2013, 07:43:01 pm »
+2

I feel that HoP ends up dominant more often than Haggler ever does, in that Haggler is rarely dominant.  But I don't think HoP is dominant that often.  And Haggler is more often just generally useful, I think.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #310 on: May 24, 2013, 09:19:09 pm »
0

Horn of Plenty and Haggler have similar shortcomings. Neither are great in games with only terminals, and both really suffer from junkers and handsize reducers. Something to note about Haggler is that it is strong in the presence of money generating cards, but the Horn can be strengthened by lots more, from the lowly Pearl Diver and a random Oasis to the scary Altar and the loyal Golem, all while being non-terminal. The non-terminal feature of Horn is what really adds to its explosive potential. I do think Haggler does better as an opening, but I don't know if it belongs higher on the list than Horn.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #311 on: May 24, 2013, 11:25:58 pm »
0

I love both Haggler and HoP. I find myself buying Haggler more often, and it is very useful, but I love pulling off a HoP megaturn. HoP engines are probably my favorite to play. So, I think that maybe the attachment to HoP comes from the whole megaturn aspect that it allows. I wouldn't say that makes it better than Haggler, but more fun to play as a whole. I still love both of them though.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #312 on: May 24, 2013, 11:30:10 pm »
+1

I fully endorse Haggler outperforming Horn.
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DStu

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #313 on: May 25, 2013, 04:10:35 am »
0

Join in to defend Haggler.  Both HoP and Haggler are the strong gainers. HoP has more potential to be really great, but needs the right board for it (ie an engine).  Haggler you can play on almost every board.  Engine? Usually good. Big Money? good, especially Haggler lets you go BigMoney+Cantrip basically for free.  Slog? Free Silvers.
It's that Haggler is a strong addition of all of this deck that get's it up here, and in my opinion also gets it above HoP.  But HoP of course also belongs here due to it's possibility of totally dominating engine games.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #314 on: May 25, 2013, 09:10:39 am »
0

DStu is right on the money. Here are two other pieces of evidence to consider:

1. In order for HoP to be effective, it needs a way to play many (different) cards. In order for Haggler to be effective, it only needs a way to generate a hand with a decent amount of $. Generating a decent amount of $ every hand - about $5 - is not only much easier, but it's also much more consistent.

This is in accordance with common opinion that HoP is only viable in engine games. However, we should also consider that not every type of engine is good for HoP. Engines that rely on cantrips and/or draw-to-X can't use HoP effectively. Hunting Party without another drawing card typically isn't very good either.

2. If CR.com stats are anything to go by, a top player like -Stef- gains Haggler more often than he does HoP given both are available (81.6% vs. 61.3%).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #315 on: May 25, 2013, 09:44:58 am »
0

Okay. Comments.
Count is significantly too high. I've gone over this.

Catacombs should be above Rabble, slightly. Let's break it down. Both are smithies. Rabble gets the attack, which, if they are going big money, is going to be pretty painful if you can repeat it. Catacombs gives you the filtering. First of all, this directly counters the top-of-deck-mucking of Rabble. But it's also always useful until you are drawing the last three or fewer cards of your deck, whereas Rabble's attack is useful to skip past good cards, if it does that. Each play of Rabble typically doesn't worsen their top-of deck quality by all that much (on average).
So Rabble chains, with LOTS of Rabbles, are particularly potent against, say, slogs, but it's pretty rare you get such a matchup, and in general, Catacombs have a bit more utility. Just off of this, it would be very very close, though I think I would give the tiny edge to Catacombs. The trash ability makes it clear for me, though still not a very large difference.

Lab is, I think, a bit too high, and stables a bit too low. I definitely like stables more overall. In either case, you don't want to build an engine just on the backs of one of these too often, and when it's more of a supplement or general good card, stables is just a bit better. The ability to trade what is usually a copper for a random card of your deck generally outweighs the chance of the no-treasure disaster. The NTD does suck, of course, but you build your deck around it.

Vault seems too high. It is excellent in Big Money, of course, but not so good for much else (eh, it grabs GMs); it is totally hosed by discard attacks and/or colony games, and the drawback is pretty significant in quite a lot of games. Embassy should definitely be better. It's a touch worse in a head-to-head BM matchup, but this is slight, and quite frankly, this situation is rare, and Embassy is better for almost every other situation.

I would put apprentice below Lab, for sure. Probably not much below, but below.

Upgrade should not be this far above Junk Dealer. I think that's mostly based on Junk Dealer being too low. I actually think I would put JD a slot or so above upgrade, but it is really tough. I find it strange to say that upgrade should be 'way way' higher, though, considering it's at 19 and a lot of the cards that are left MUST be better than it, as well as, I think, some of them we've already seen.

Bandit Camp isn't so much better than than Bazaar. Indeed, in most engines, I think I usually even prefer Bazaar, as it's easier to draw with. Of course, BC is pretty good even in other situations, whereas Bazaar is fairly marginal there. So BC is probably a touch better overall, but they're close.

Rebuild - I do not understand this card, other than it is strong. Definitely underrated here, but I am not sure how to play it. Can someone write an article here??

I agree with Bazaar>Festival - the buy is not so important as the extra card, usually.

Haggler vs. HoP. Well, I think it's probably pretty obvious that HoP has more upside, but Haggler is better more often. Actually one might compare Haggler to BoM, in some ways, being dependent on how good the cheap cards are. Uh, I think I would nudge HoP a touch higher than Haggler, but it's close - I certainly don't blame people for going the other way.

Counterfeit - I think this guy's being underrated. But, I might just write a little article on him.

Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #316 on: May 25, 2013, 10:23:35 am »
0

There's already been a long discussion about Rebuild, and I don't want to restart it, but... man, that's a powerful card. I had two games with it recently. We both bought it, so I can't really tell if not buying it was an option (although I'm almost positive it wasn't), but it was like the most important card both times. And one of the times, I had a really nice engine going and everything... but I still wanted Rebuild in it. I don't know. I can't imagine a situation where you wouldn't buy it at all. Seriously, guys.
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lespeutere

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #317 on: May 25, 2013, 10:55:35 am »
0

There's already been a long discussion about Rebuild, and I don't want to restart it, but... man, that's a powerful card. I had two games with it recently. We both bought it, so I can't really tell if not buying it was an option (although I'm almost positive it wasn't), but it was like the most important card both times. And one of the times, I had a really nice engine going and everything... but I still wanted Rebuild in it. I don't know. I can't imagine a situation where you wouldn't buy it at all. Seriously, guys.

There were one or two games (against SCSN?) where not getting it was the right call, I believe. Anyway, I just scanned the article very, very briefly and one of the advice in the 'to review' section stroke me as plain wrong (which has also already been mentioned by someone else). And WW himself did answer in that thread so I assume he has read the article at that time.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #318 on: May 25, 2013, 11:10:57 am »
0

Ironically, just before Robz888's post, I played a game where I'm pretty sure I correctly didn't buy one - a double jack game with shelters were I never hit 5 exactly, or at least not until there were only a few provinces left and duchy was very clear.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #319 on: May 26, 2013, 06:44:33 am »
0

I feel your frustration WW on Rebuild. I wrote the same words as you months ago that I don't get this card but I know it is very strong. Rebuild is the main reason I will only play 5000+ players. I would lose games to players with ranks of 2000 to that card who filled their decks with terminals and were playing horrible. Then, I would win against players with a higher rank than me. And, I do feel I have a better handle on Rebuild, but like you, I just don't get it all the time, and it is the one card that when I see it pop up in a kingdom, I automatically get worried.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #320 on: May 26, 2013, 10:15:32 am »
0

I feel your frustration WW on Rebuild. I wrote the same words as you months ago that I don't get this card but I know it is very strong. Rebuild is the main reason I will only play 5000+ players. I would lose games to players with ranks of 2000 to that card who filled their decks with terminals and were playing horrible. Then, I would win against players with a higher rank than me. And, I do feel I have a better handle on Rebuild, but like you, I just don't get it all the time, and it is the one card that when I see it pop up in a kingdom, I automatically get worried.

If you consistently lose to them, maybe they are not playing horrible and that's just the way (or a way) to play Rebuild.
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #321 on: May 26, 2013, 11:04:45 am »
0

I feel your frustration WW on Rebuild. I wrote the same words as you months ago that I don't get this card but I know it is very strong. Rebuild is the main reason I will only play 5000+ players. I would lose games to players with ranks of 2000 to that card who filled their decks with terminals and were playing horrible. Then, I would win against players with a higher rank than me. And, I do feel I have a better handle on Rebuild, but like you, I just don't get it all the time, and it is the one card that when I see it pop up in a kingdom, I automatically get worried.

If you consistently lose to them, maybe they are not playing horrible and that's just the way (or a way) to play Rebuild.

I think the issue is not that Beyond Awesome plays rebuild poorly, it's that it is not difficult to play rebuild well. A lot of the time when rebuild is on the board, the game turns into a 55/45 chance of winning, even if one of the players is far superior to the other. It's like when double jack is the dominant strategy, except that it happens more often.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #322 on: May 26, 2013, 11:59:59 am »
0

I think the issue is not that Beyond Awesome plays rebuild poorly, it's that it is not difficult to play rebuild well. A lot of the time when rebuild is on the board, the game turns into a 55/45 chance of winning, even if one of the players is far superior to the other. It's like when double jack is the dominant strategy, except that it happens more often.

Agreed, I just said that in this context this opponents are not playing horrible

... I would lose games to players with ranks of 2000 to that card who filled their decks with terminals and were playing horrible. ...
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ragingduckd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #323 on: May 26, 2013, 11:03:07 pm »
0

I think the issue is not that Beyond Awesome plays rebuild poorly, it's that it is not difficult to play rebuild well. A lot of the time when rebuild is on the board, the game turns into a 55/45 chance of winning, even if one of the players is far superior to the other. It's like when double jack is the dominant strategy, except that it happens more often.

I actually find Rebuild rather challenging to play.  Rebuild's speed makes every decision important and it demands skills that don't usually get a lot of practice, like knowing your exact VP cards and their location in your shuffle.

Rebuild strategy is counter-intuitive too.  You can win with just a couple Silver and no Gold at all.  The most important card on the board is Duchy and cantrip sifters are better than drawers.  Estates hurt you worse than Curses if you've won the Duchy split, but pile-driving Estates can be better than going after Provinces if you've lost it.  I'd rather categorize Rebuild with Possession than with Jack.... high skill as well as high variance.
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heatthespurs

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #324 on: May 27, 2013, 01:02:25 am »
0

Estates hurt you worse than Curses if you've won the Duchy split, but pile-driving Estates can be better than going after Provinces if you've lost it.

Not sure I get this... could you elaborate?
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